EBB 382 – The Power of Your Birth Story with Lisa Greaves Taylor, Host of the Birth Matters Podcast

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:00:00:

Hi, everyone. On today’s podcast, we’re going to talk with Lisa Greaves Taylor about using birth stories as a powerful educational and self-empowerment tool for families and birth workers in New York City. Welcome to the Evidence Based Birth® Podcast. My name is Rebecca Dekker, and I’m a nurse with my PhD and the founder of Evidence Based Birth®. Join me each week as we work together to get evidence-based information into the hands of families and professionals around the world. As a reminder, this information is not medical advice. See ebbirth.com/disclaimer for more details. Hi everyone and welcome to today’s episode of the Evidence Based Birth® Podcast. Today, I am so excited to welcome Lisa Greaves Taylor to the Evidence Based Birth® Podcast. Lisa is founder of Birth Matters New York City Childbirth Education, director of the East River Doula Collective, and host of the popular Birth Matters Podcast, which shares mostly New York City area birth stories. Lisa has been working with New York City area birthing families since 2010 as a childbirth educator, birth doula, and lactation counselor. She is certified with Lamaze International, Childbirth Education Association of Metropolitan New York, and DONA International. Lisa is devoted to helping equip birthing people with the best current evidence, strategic and coping tools, and self-advocacy strategies towards safer, more empowering, and positive journeys in parenthood. Lisa is particularly passionate about advocating for change in birthing and postpartum health outcomes for Black, BIPOC, LGBTQIA+, and underserved or marginalized populations. She’s been a proud professional member of Evidence Based Birth® since 2019, an Evidence Based Birth® instructor since 2021. She teaches the EBB Savvy Birth 101 workshop several times a year, and she regularly incorporates EBB resources into her teaching and her Birth Matters podcast. Lisa, welcome to the Evidence Based Birth® Podcast.

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:02:11:

Thank you, Rebecca, for having me. I cannot be more excited and honored to be here. I know you know that I’m one of your biggest fans. You’re like part of my daily life. So really, really happy to be here and chat with you.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:02:26:

Yeah, we’ve been so thrilled to have you be part of the EBB community for such a long time. Such a dedicated birth worker who an educator who is spreading the good information to help families and other birth professionals. So, you know, you’ve been doing this for a while. I was wondering if you could take us back to the beginning and let us know what what first drew you to childbirth education and doula work?

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:02:51:

Yes, thank you. So I came to birth work in the way that many of us do, on the other side of my own two birth experiences. So I gave birth in 2005 and 2008. The days are long, but the years fly by, as they say. And on the other side of giving birth twice, I became so passionate about changing the narrative that is not so helpful to us in our country that’s all around fear and trying to change that narrative and really improve outcomes. Because I’ll just share a couple of things that helped me feel called to this work that I had my eyes opened in my first pregnancy, especially learning, you know, really like trying to ramp up my education because I was like, I don’t- I’ve never done this before. As most of us, that’s the way most of us feel, right? And so I found what a game changer going to birth class. I took like a really long birth class. It was kind of quasi-Bradley. It was around 24 hours long, eight classes that were about three hours long in a Soho play gym with backjack chairs. We were all sitting, it was eight couples sitting on the floor. Really, really thorough education. And what special time it was for my husband and me to really deepen and strengthen our connection. I think that’s one of another really important part of sharing a class time, having that mindful, intentional time to prepare for this rite of passage. And so seeing what a game changer that was, as well as having the support that we needed. Hiring a doula was the right choice for us and a right choice for so many families to have that extra support to help both of us feel calm. And in the moment, there’s so many ways things can go. And birth class can only go so much, so long, so far, right? In helping prepare us. Because in the moment, a lot of things are going to happen that you’re like, is this normal? I don’t know. So the doula was there to really help us advocate for ourselves. And so on the other side of birth, I found that changing the narrative was amazing. That I, you know, going to birth class and reading and educating ourselves really helped shift my mindset in a very, very powerful game changer way from fear to empowerment and calm and peace in a way that helped my labor progress. Then I also had my eyes opened in my first pregnancy and beyond to some of the challenges that we face in our maternal healthcare system. And thankfully, these days it’s getting a lot more media attention. A lot more people are aware of this, but then it was the case when I was giving birth to my babies. But we know that you’ve shared on this podcast a lot, you know, that we are ranking at the bottom of the developed nations in our outcomes in terms of maternal mortality. So we have a lot of work to do, doing exponentially worse for Black and Brown and Indigenous folks. And so we really, really need to do a lot of work and advocacy to change things for the better. And so those were the two main things that caused me to feel called to this work. And just to be a little more specific in my labor. Some things happened where my vision for birth was about to be derailed in a way that didn’t need to be necessarily. And so learning in class some self-advocacy strategies, as well as having our doula to remind us of those things, was such a game changer. You know, buying time, asking people to leave the room so that we could make a well-thought-out, sound, calm decision that we were much more likely to feel good about. So, and I’m convinced to this day that if I had not learned those tools, we had not, and used those in labor. My birth would have, I was about to get onto the road to a preventable C-section. Now, of course, we’re glad we have C-section when we need it, but we know that we’re doing a lot of preventable ones in this day and age. And so I’m so, so, so forever grateful that I felt really equipped in that way to advocate for myself. Because if I had not, I think it would have gone in a very, I know it would have gone in a very different direction. So those are the things that caused me to really want to do this work and be part of the change. Help, help, you know, not just protect the physical health of the parent and the baby, but also the mental health. So importantly, there’s so much. Ignoring that part of that in our culture, I feel like. And we know that U.S. Surgeon General in August of 2024 came out with this statement saying there’s a mental health crisis among parents in our country. And it starts at this time when they’re becoming parents. So let’s protect that mental health as well as the physical health. Those are things I’m passionate about.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:07:45:

And you were giving birth in New York City during those years. Okay, so this is reminding me of when, I had. My baby in 2008, my first. I think the Business of Being Born had come out shortly before around that.

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:08:01:

That was my second.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:08:02:

Yeah. And so, and it was filmed largely in New York City in the hospitals there.

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:08:09:

I actually was at an event last night with Ricki Lake and Abby Epstein. Funny, funny that you brought that up.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:08:14:

Yeah.

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:08:15:

Yeah. They were surprised guests at this dinner, this anniversary dinner at a restaurant in the Village for birth workers. It was the launch of a new brand and they were surprised guests last night and it was really exciting to hear them talk and just see them again in person. Yeah. Cause I got to go to a screening of that film that you just brought up when I was pregnant with my second and they were, they did a talk back at that screening.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:08:39:

And I remember it, you know, really contrasted the difference between kind of the medical model of care in New York City and the midwifery model. And, you know, to be honest, it made the hospital situation in New York City look pretty grim. And so you had your first baby, you know, 20 or so years ago. How have things in the city changed since then? Like what’s gotten better? What’s the same or worse?

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:09:07:

Yeah, so I always like to find hope where we can. And we’ll talk about hopefulness later, but… But this one will be a little depressing or not so much of an encouraging thing. We think of New York City as such a progressive city. And yet, very surprisingly, we couldn’t be more the opposite of progressive in the birth world, in birthing practices and things. There is such, you know, you always talk about the evidence practice gap. And it is so big here in the city. It’s wild. Yeah, it’s really discouraging. And we’re also, over the last 20 years, we have started to lose some of the birthing options that people had. Like, I gave birth in Mount Sinai West in Manhattan. They used to have an in-hospital birthing center. Well, that closed in, I think it was 2019. And then they’ve come and gone. We’ve had, during the pandemic, we had one freestanding birth center that just, like, got, they were able to get exceptions to all the paperwork that usually is required. And it was called JAZZ. It was in Manhattan. And it was so short-lived. It was only around for maybe a year or two. And then, poof, gone. There was another in-hospital birthing center down New York, Lower Manhattan. And that one only lasted, not sure how many years, but very few, like probably less than five years. It was open and then it’s gone. So now we have no in-hospital birthing center options. We have one freestanding birthing center way out in Brooklyn, like as far out in Brooklyn, as far away from Manhattan as you can get. And I’ll talk about some things that are in the works a little later that are giving me hope. But it’s so frustrating and so discouraging to so many of the people I work with because they’re like, why don’t we have more options? We live in such a progressive city. Why don’t we have more options than just like mostly just hospital or home birth? And one birthing center that has very limited capacity, you know, and geographically, a lot of people don’t feel comfortable having to go that far who don’t live out in East Brooklyn. So we’ve also seen, and this has been, I think, a nationwide change in the last few years. We’ve seen a big increase since 2018 and then even more so in 2020, since 2020 in inductions. I think the ARRIVE trial was one. I know ARRIVE trial was one of the reasons. And then the pandemic, we all felt like in a world out of control, that felt out of control. We were looking for anything we could control or feel like we had control over. So a lot of people were just, there was a big increase in both of those years in inductions. And for whatever reason, it has just stuck around since then. One of my goals in my career is to do some citywide research among the people I work with, the families I work with, and the families that the doulas in my collective work with, and maybe other doulas as well. But it’s a big project, so haven’t gotten there yet.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:12:10:

So is there a lot of pressure then to be induced or are families just mainly choosing induction because that’s what they want?

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:12:15:

It’s mostly pressure. I would say 95% of it is pressure to be induced.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:12:22:

Mm-hmm. Be induced selectively or is there like an increase in health reasons for induction?

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:12:27:

Well, both. So we are seeing increases in preeclampsia. And so that would be a medical indication. But then also just, you know, due date reasons. And I reference all the time, several of your induction articles, including due dates and a big baby and all of those. But some of the grayer areas where it’s really like a risk benefit analysis and a lot harder to make those decisions. And in birth class, I’m always trying to help as best as I can help people navigate the nuances of their particular situations because it’s never a black and white thing. But many times these calendar, these due date based inductions or date based inductions aren’t fully medically necessary all the time, you know, so that’s like the most common one for sure.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:13:15:

Okay. So inductions, I’m assuming high rates of interventions in the hospitals. And-

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:13:22:

Depending on the hospital, we know some or have more of a reputation than others.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:13:26:

Okay.

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:13:27:

Like there’s, there’s one or two hospitals that a lot of the doulas in my collective stopped working at because they’re just like, it’s too traumatic for my clients. It’s too traumatic for me. I just, I have to, you know, protect my sanity and wellness. And so depending on the practice.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:13:42:

Is it mistreatment that you’re seeing like, you know, in terms of such high levels of coercion or kind of almost like dominating the patients or what is it that is?

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:13:53:

In, in like, yes, yes, a lot of the time, but in subtle ways, not as blatant, like I’m forcing you to do this, you know, but, but those subtle ways that can be really sneaky and, and it’s those ways, where patients often women birthing people are often not realizing that it was coercion until they’ve processed it, you know, days and weeks and months later.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:14:17:

Like maybe doesn’t, something just doesn’t feel right about it, but you can’t put your finger on it because nobody was outright mean to you.

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:14:23:

Yeah. I mean, there are occasions that it’s like meanness there. There’s absolutely that, but we have so many providers in the city. It’s really hard to make like blanket statements, but you know, we can kind of spot a little bit of trends and things just really quickness to do a C-section with some of our providers and some of our hospitals as well as the inductions, yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:14:43:

And what about postpartum care in the hospital? So like on the mother baby units, after giving birth, is there sufficient support for lactation, for bonding, for the golden hour, all those things?

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:15:02:

It’s another thing that is so hospital specific.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:15:04:

Okay.

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:15:05:

No blanket statement. I know it’s so hard. It’s so hard because we just, again, have so many hospitals. But I can say that lactation support at most of our hospitals is not what it should be at all. You know, if they get to be seen by an IBCLC, some of them are giving great advice and some of them are not, you know, and are recommending things that aren’t like triple feeding that can be necessary and helpful in some occasions. They’re rarely given like, this is when you stop doing it or definitely follow up with an IBCLC.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:15:46:

And what is triple feeding for our listeners?

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:15:48:

Yeah. So we’re feeding the baby at the breast and then we’re pumping and then we’re feeding the baby what we’ve pumped. And it’s really, really vigorous. It’s just a lot of extra work for someone who’s-

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:16:00:

A lot of people are being recommended that?

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:16:01:

Yeah. Yeah. It is such a big trend in our city. I don’t know. I can’t speak for other places in the country, but this is such a rampant thing that so many women and birthing people are being told to be doing. And it is- just causing so much stress. And is that going to help the milk to flow? No. To build up that adrenaline and to send them home with no end in sight, it’s never supposed to be forever. But a lot of people are just doing it perpetually because they never were told that you’re only supposed to do it for a certain amount of time or check in with a lactation consultant.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:16:37:

Get your supply up. Yeah.

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:16:37:

Yeah. So that’s one of the big things we see that’s not always the best, most customized guidance. Like, not everybody needs to do that. And yet a lot of people are just, that’s like the go-to, the easy go-to for a lot of the hospital lactation consultants. And I feel for them because their ability to support them is very limited because we’re sent home after a vaginal birth so quickly, you know, one or two days after birth in a vaginal birth and about three and a half days or so. Yeah. And then our milk hasn’t even come in yet.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:17:08:

Yeah.

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:17:09:

And then things get trickier. So I wish it was standard of care. And I share this in birth class. I just like call a lactation consultant as soon as you give birth, schedule a day three to five in-home visit. That is going to serve you so well to just have some strategies and some support because that’s what we deserve. And in other countries, they’re getting that because they’re not going home as soon as we do here in the U.S..

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:17:35:

Or the home visits are just standard part of care for people who go home early. Right. You mentioned that, you know, practices vary from hospital to hospital. So we talked about overarching trends, but are there any specific places that… when you have a client, a doula client who’s going to give birth, they’re like, yes. I know they’re more likely to have a good experience. And what are they doing at those facilities that make it a better experience?

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:18:05:

Well, having midwives often is our go-to. The hospitals that we generally can recommend more often than not will have at least one midwifery practice available who is really providing that patient-centered care, that family-centered care that they deserve. And, you know, it just feels so much more respectful and dignified.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:18:28:

So there are a lot of hospitals that don’t have any midwives still.

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:18:31:

There’s a lot of them in New York City. Okay. Yeah. Unfortunately, we have… I can count on one hand or so the number of many, many, many hospitals that have midwives. Yeah. And, you know, there’s the accessibility issue, too, because so many hospital, most hospital midwives are out of network. In fact, I was so sad just in the past week or so. It was announced that my one of my favorite hospital midwifery, very small practices is closing. And Central Park Midwifery, shout out, love them so much. And they’re closing their doors. It’s just a really it’s it’s hard work. And especially when you’re out of network and then you do have these startup midwifery practices that are really large, have a lot of funding and they are in network with a lot of insurance providers. I’m sure that was one. I don’t know. I haven’t asked them, but I’m sure that that’s one of the factors that might have been putting them out of business. It was harder for them to get clients. But at the same time, like people need in network options, you know, so it’s this like it’s this hard thing because then but then when it’s in network, it’s a larger practice. There are many, many midwives and it’s harder to get to know all of them.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:19:43:

You don’t get as much of the personalized care.

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:19:45:

Yeah. Yeah. That’s I mean, that’s the general the feeling that I get from people who are working with the larger practices of any kind, whether it’s OBs or midwives. It’s just so hard to get to know all of them and to really develop that rapport before the big day. And you don’t know which one’s going to attend your birth because they usually rotate on like a weekly, like daily basis.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:20:05:

So when a hospital has been positively influenced by having, you know, a thriving midwifery practice there, what are some of the options that clients can find there that they can’t find at other hospitals in New York City.

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:20:18:

One of the things that comes to mind is that back when I gave birth, it was a lot easier to advocate for intermittent monitoring than continuous monitoring than it is now. There’s just a lot more pressure on average in our local hospitals than there used to be to just stay on that continuous monitoring monitor. Now, I hope that that New York Times article that just came out that so many of us birth workers were like, it’s about time.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:20:44:

Okay, I was wondering, like, why the New York Times chose to, you know, pursue that that topic. But it makes sense if it’s a really big problem in New York City hospitals.

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:20:53:

Yeah. But I’m like, okay, we’ve been teaching this for.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:20:56:

Right. This is no surprise.

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:20:58:

My whole career-

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:20:58:

Advocates have been talking about this for decades. Yeah.

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:21:01:

Yeah. Yeah. Longer than that. But that’s as long as I’ve been doing the work is almost 16 years. So so with a midwifery practice, often they’re able to like. Get away with doing more intermittent monitoring, maybe having like a saline lock and drinking to thirst instead of having, you know, default IV fluids where that’s harder to negotiate with a lot of OBs. Some will upon request. Things like that that are getting us closer to evidence-based care.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:21:29:

Is there any water birth in any New York City hospitals?

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:21:32:

Great question. No, not unless you give birth at home. There is right across the Long Island border, not too far across the Long Island border, there is a hospital that does offer water birth. And then, well, I’m sorry, I should correct that. Birthing Center, Brooklyn Birthing Center does offer water birth as well. At least last I checked, I think sometimes it goes, I feel like I’ve heard it. Maybe they can labor in the tub, but not birth in the tub. But I think you can still birth in the tub. They have a nice, nice big tub in the Birthing Center. But yeah, no hospital. That’s just not a thing. In fact, there is one hospital. I won’t name them now. They renovated a few years ago, and they’re a very popular hospital for people to give birth at. They installed these big whirlpool tubs. They never let anybody use them.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:22:28:

Like you’ve never seen a client get permission to use one?

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:22:32:

Well, I always say better to ask forgiveness than permission. Like fill that up when they’re not in the room if you want to use it. But like they’re like, oh, you don’t want to have to sanitize it. I’m like, well, somebody didn’t communicate with somebody.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:22:46:

They can even labor in the tub in most settings there.

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:22:49:

In that particular hospital, they’re usually like, nope, you can’t get in the tub at all.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:22:54:

So they have the beautiful tubs for the photos and the tours, but you can’t get in it.

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:22:59:

Yeah. It’s very much a, it feels like a bait and switch. But I think it was more just somebody didn’t communicate with somebody. I don’t know when they were renovating. I don’t know. I like to try to think the best of people.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:23:13:

So you started the Birth Matters podcast, and it really features birth stories, mainly from your community in the New York City metropolitan area. What impact have you seen that have? Like what makes that such a powerful educational tool when you’re facing kind of like I said earlier, kind of these grim circumstances where it’s very difficult to get family-centered care? You’re often pressured or channeled into one way of doing things. How has Birth Matters, the podcast, made a difference?

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:23:47:

Well, if I may, I’d love to just generalize that more into how powerful storytelling is.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:23:52:

Okay.

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:23:53:

Because. I come from a family of storytellers and actors and performers and writers and composers and poets. All of those things. And so as I was thinking about how can I affect change and as well as, of course, help people find my classes and resources and things, I was thinking, you know what? Storytelling is so powerful. And stories get us out of that thinking brain, you know, the thinking brain that tends to be very binary, the left brain, so to speak. And, you know, when we’re sharing facts, it seems very straightforward and black and white. And it’s more forgettable, too. When we can capture someone’s imagination and help them shift into that right brain, activate their imagination, create images in their minds through that storytelling, it is so much more powerful. It is so much more likely to stick and helps them to put themselves into the center of that story as the protagonist and kind of identify, find points where they, oh, I identify with that, you know, this and that. And so the more stories people can listen to, the more it really helps in that exploratory process in terms of like, what do I want for my, what would I envision my baby’s birth and my labor looking like in this huge rite of passage? I wanted to read, if I may read this quote from a book called The Story Factor by Annette Simmons. She was talking about how it’s immersing yourself in a story is similar to hypnosis. And so she says this, she says, responsiveness develops as the left brain and its either/or distinctions and right-wrong judgments are quieted in favor of the imaginative right brain’s ability to embrace ambiguity and both and truth. So I just found that to be a really powerful quote and really drives home how powerful stories can be. And it also fills in a lot of the gaps in what we have time for in birth class, in the formal birth class. So whenever I’m teaching on certain topics, I will mention there’s a story on this that’ll, if you want to take a deeper dive into this process through the power of storytelling in this certain topic, I’ll link you to that episode in the, whenever I send them links and resources after class. So I hope that people listen to some of those because it’s so much more effective.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:26:34:

It reminds me of, you know, when you sit and you’re watching a really enthralling movie or you’re in a theater watching a musical or a play. And how you are kind of swept away into the story, as you said. I never really thought about that accessing the right half of your brain during storytelling. That’s a really interesting point because… You know, a lot of… Evidence looks at the differences between left and right brain. And right brain is actually where you access your intuition, like your inner ways of knowing, kind of the nonverbal knowing in a way. So is it another way for parents to kind of grow their own self-power, their feeling of their intuition?

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:27:18:

I’m getting chills, Rebecca. That’s so powerful. You’re so right. And to add to that whole intuition thing, we know that our bodies, our brains are going through lots of changes in pregnancy and our intuition is elevated. So what better way to support that elevation and explore that intuition and kind of get more in tune with that intuition than storytelling?

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:27:41:

I mean, I do want to, you know, kind of push back a little bit, though. Can storytelling be harmful in pregnancy? Because for me, I remember just like at all the baby showers I went to when I was having babies and all my friends, well, it took a couple of years before they kind of caught up to me. But once I started going to more baby showers. Everybody wanted to share their traumatic births or this is this horrible thing that happened to me. And it becomes like, let’s just vomit our trauma onto this, you know, the person who we’re supposed to be showering with love and tenderness and affection. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:28:15:

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Thank you for bringing that up. You’re absolutely right. And that’s another reason why I wanted to start this podcast. Initially, when I started the podcast, I really envisioned sharing. More than not just really empowering stories. But, you know, the more I got into it, the more I was like, well, all stories matter. Yeah, all stories matter. And I do want to be careful in like re-traumatizing someone or traumatizing someone. But what I concluded is that different stories serve different purposes for different people. And I always encourage people both on the podcast and in birth class and whenever I’m recommending listening to something, always curate for yourselves what you think will be helpful. And that’s why I give a little summary at the top of each story, little glimpse of what’s ahead or in the show notes as well, to kind of help people curate for themselves which stories they think might be useful. I mean, we won’t know for sure, but we can to a good degree and then leave the ones that you don’t think are going to be supportive to you. I think that’s kind of the best we can do. But also, I wanted to start this podcast because, what you were saying exactly, Rebecca, is that people come to class or come to this time in life and pregnancy having heard so many traumatic stories from from people they know. And so to balance that out with like really in this time in life, maybe choosing to expose yourself to a different kind of story to change that narrative might be really, really a game changer. I know it was for me, like I read Ina May’s Guide to Childbirth with hesitation when I was pregnant with my first because my girlfriend who’d given birth a year or two before me recommended it. And I was like, well, it seems kind of crunchy granola. I don’t know. But I was open to it. And the power of the stories was really, really helpful to me to just read empowering ones, healthy ones, to shift that narrative. Kind of balance out our culture.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:30:18:

Yeah, I think, yeah, you’re making a really good distinction in that it’s just like in choosing which movies you want to watch or you want your child to watch, like you need discernment in which stories you… learn from and listen to because you’re kind of choosing for a moment when you’re listening to that story to kind of immerse yourself. I mean, I guess there’s probably a way to kind of like kind of put your walls up and not… Not let that trauma, really, go past your defenses, but it just seems like using discernment and telling people, look, I’m not in the space right now to listen to this story. That’s okay to do, right?

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:30:57:

Oh, absolutely. Best time in our lives in pregnancy and into parenthood to establish healthy boundaries for sure.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:31:05:

Okay.

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:31:06:

Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:31:08:

So- When you mentioned having, you know, stories of difficult or traumatic births. So in your podcast is you’re sharing a variety of different stories, both, you know, some we would consider quote unquote positive, but others where things didn’t go as planned or maybe people experienced trauma. When there has been a difficult birth that doesn’t go according to plan, how can storytelling help someone?

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:31:34:

That one is tricky, but I have a couple of thoughts on that. I think that when someone finds a story that is kind of similar to their experience, it can help them feel less alone.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:31:49:

Okay.

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:31:50:

I know, for example, with pregnancy loss, that’s something that people routinely… Actually, I was listening to one of your podcast episodes with the filmmaker. How, I think it might’ve been a different one. I listened to several recently.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:32:04:

Was about, well, we had several recently last October for-

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:32:08:

Oh, it was actually Sara. It was Sara.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:32:10:

Yeah, Sara.

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:32:10:

Yeah, yeah. They were, yes, they were talking about how solitary, how lonely that felt. And I’ve heard that from so many people. And so to feel less alone, whether it’s loss or a difficult birthing process or a difficult pregnancy or whatever it might be. There’s huge value in that. And then the other thing or another thing that I find really that has been so helpful for people, they’ve shared with me, it’s been so helpful, is if they had a difficult or traumatic birth and now they’re expecting another baby to listen to stories of a different path and just hear different ways to advocate for oneself, especially if it was a traumatic experience that they felt like could have been prevented, which is so many of them, to hear other narratives is so… Not to overuse the word game changer, but I’m going to say game changer. It can be a real game changer for them.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:33:14:

So they can listen to stories of other people who experienced trauma and then went on to have another baby. And how they kind of tackled that. Problem of processing everything.

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:33:26:

Yeah, or even it doesn’t even have to be a second timer. It could be just a first one that where it just it was a similar path in ways, but they but but the result was different. It didn’t end up being traumatic for maybe support reasons or education or advocacy reasons or choosing a different kind of care provider reasons. Those are all things that I think are so those are things, different aspects that we’re trying to help our clients, doulas and childbirth educators always trying to help our you know, prevent trauma as much as we can by the choice of provider by thinking about your support team really, really mindfully and intentionally. But just us telling them that doesn’t usually land and take root, you know, like a story can like hearing one of their peers sharing that can really take-

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:34:17:

Like, this is what happened. This was the red flag. I switched successfully to another provider. And then this happened and this happened. And it’s like, oh, it’s actually possible. And they can envision themselves also doing that.

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:34:31:

Yes.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:34:32:

Yeah, that makes sense. I was also thinking while you were talking about, you know, you’ve done a lot more birth stories than I have. We do about one a month. And whenever we have, you know, a difficult, more challenging birth story, one of the things I’ve noticed is that a lot of people who apply to come share their story have been doing a lot of processing. And so they come. Really prepared to kind of share like. The heart of their story, but also the wisdom and lessons they would like other people to know, which I think is really beautiful.

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:35:07:

It is.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:35:08:

The way to like make things better for the next generation or the people coming behind you. But I’ve also noticed that some people who come on to share maybe a positive birth story and they talk briefly about like their first negative birth experience, I can tell when someone hasn’t really processed it because it’s almost like they dissociate when they’re talking about their negative experience and they don’t show any emotion. Have you seen that at all?

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:35:34:

I have, although I’m not thinking of the specific people, but that really, it does resonate. So I know that I have come across that. Yeah. Yeah, so much. We’ll always be processing our births. But you’re right that that disassociation can happen when there’s a negative.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:35:49:

Yeah. And I think it’s not always, you know, we. We never know the timing of when we’re going to process something, right? It could bubble up. In a year or in 50 years. And you don’t really know.

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:36:02:

Yeah, yeah. It’s so true. Yeah, this event I went to, I went to with a friend of mine who’s a therapist in the perinatal space. And she talked about, without naming names, she said a former client of mine had had a traumatic first experience and I think a more positive experience after. And she, even after that birth experience, she continued to work with the therapist. And she just, the therapist was so encouraged because she’s like, she’s really, really wanting to go back to like previous life, earlier in her life. What were the things that contributed to her traumatic experience? And really work on all of that and explore all of that to really support her mental health. So she just was really encouraged that she wanted to continue that work. I really wish all of us had that holding space with a therapist. That’s another thing I wish was standard of care in this time in life, in pregnancy and in postpartum, to just have a therapist. Because even if it’s just talk therapy where you’re just having this holding space to process so many feelings that are happening in pregnancy and beyond. That could be a really game changer way to support people’s mental health.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:37:17:

Right. And then a therapist or an experienced healer could help you. You know, like you said, change the narrative and maybe reframe some of the things. That happened to you so that, you feel more powerful as a parent rather than disempowered.

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:37:35:

Right, right. Right.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:37:36:

Yeah.

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:37:37:

We want people to feel empowered. Find their voice.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:37:41:

Yeah. Yeah. What’s one birth story from your podcast or your role as a doula or educator that stayed with you?

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:37:50:

That is so hard, Rebecca, because there’s so many that stick with me and it depends on what I’m doing and what’s happening in my life that different ones come back to me. I think that, I mean, I’ve kind of already touched on this, but I think that some of the stories that are most powerful are ones where there’s this arc from struggle to joy or stories in which someone felt like they had no voice or choice and then they found their voice in a really transformative way. And then so VBAC stories are one thing that kind of popped into my head in thinking about that. Because there’s more than one story, and it’s more of a journey of kind of this evolution of this person. And so there’s one in episode 124 that was shared by Rachel Maurice. She’s a Black woman and mother, and she is an amazing doula now. She became a doula on the other side of, I think it was her second or third birth. And now she’s an amazing advocate. But she had a VBA 2C, so she had two C-sections, and then a very empowered vaginal birth with her third that just was a reclaiming of her confidence in her body and therefore her confidence as also a mother for her. That was very empowering. And a similar story was in episode 121 by Shauna is her name, and she had had a really traumatic first C-section that she felt later like it was preventable. And so she had not been able to take a birth class in her first pregnancy because also it was 2020 when she had her first. So that also complicated things, and she couldn’t have a doula. And she had gone to therapy because it was such deep trauma. She did just so much processing to be done. She came to my birth class, and I knew that she had some PTSD, and I was very, a little nervous, honestly, having her in the class. Usually, most people who come to class are first-timers, and… And so not only having a second timer in class, but someone who had PTSD, I just really was concerned about triggering trauma, re-traumatization, just by different things that I had to talk about. And so I would try to check in with her after classes. And she actually, I was so grateful she was in therapy during those classes because there were things that came up that brought up a lot of feelings for her. But she had that holding space to be able to process what was coming up for her in a way that built her confidence and her skill set for the big day with her second birth. So yeah, she had a team of doulas from our collective who supported her beautifully. And she said that having that second really healing in her estimation, her birth was so empowering that she really found her voice as a parent that has, in a way that has built her confidence in having that parenting voice and being an advocate for not only herself, but her little ones for her family. So that was just a really powerful story that has, both of those were such powerful stories that have stuck with me a lot. But I could go on all day.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:41:19:

Thank you for recommending those. We will definitely link to those in the show notes.

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:41:21:

Thank you.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:41:23:

I think you mentioning VBAC, I can only imagine that New York City is probably not the easiest place to get a VBAC either. So that adds a whole nother layer to the… kind of the arc of their journey.

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:41:35:

It does. So we do try to keep a very short list of the truly supportive for VBAC providers because so many of them will say they’re supportive, but then there will be a, like, no, we need to schedule a C-section or in labor very quick to move to a C-section, not always, you know, necessarily.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:41:54:

And it just goes to the power of building your birth team, of having a childbirth educator or doula, you know, who can give you that insider info that is not published anywhere. Right. It’s just.

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:42:04:

Right. Yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:42:06:

It’s in your heads.

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:42:09:

Yep.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:42:10:

So, Lisa… Is there anything right now that’s giving you hope about the future of birth work?

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:42:18:

Yes. I’m so glad you asked, since I was kind of a downer earlier. So one thing that comes to mind is that we do have some birthing center efforts in the works, specifically led by women of color. So that is really encouraging. I know of three. There might be more, but I know of one up in the Bronx that they’re making great strides and already serving some family in those neighborhoods. I think one in Brooklyn, one in Queens. And I really just hope and pray that they come to fruition because in New York. It is the legislation around birthing centers is so strict. It makes it so hard. And so many people have been advocating for some change, but it’s so hard to get them started to begin with and then to sustain them financially.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:43:09:

Right. Make it financially sustainable.

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:43:11:

It’s really, really hard. So I so hope that those that we will at some point in the near future have more birthing centers, freestanding ones to have options for midwifery care.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:43:21:

And we go into depth in episode 311 with Mila Flores about the legislative efforts.

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:43:27:

That’s exactly who I was referring to.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:43:29:

Yeah. So we’ll link to that in the show notes to talk about the challenges they’ve faced and how they’re working through that.

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:43:35:

Thank you for that reminder. Yes. Wonderful episode. And then also I find hope in teaming up with other advocates in this area. Well, and anywhere. I’m willing to team up anywhere. But, you know, specific to New York City because it’s such a huge place and just so much need for change so that we can advocate with local politicians. I’m also really regularly inspired by advocates like Chanel Portia with Ancient Song, Jenny Joseph, artist Michelle Browder, Kimberly Seals Allers, Neil Shaw. And so many more. And then also, you know, I just mentioned the podcast episode with Rachel Maurice. And she’s like kind of newer on the scene in advocacy. So whenever there are kind of, you know, fresh voices. And she’s such a compelling storyteller. I just so it was so honored to have her share her story on the podcast. Because she is just she articulates things in such a compelling way. So, yeah, those kinds of people and advocates and efforts are things that are really giving me hope. And then at this event last night that I mentioned, Abby Epstein, when she and Ricky were talking, she mentioned she she’s she feels like she has hope because she feels like there’s this like second wave of birth advocacy happening right now. There’s all these documentaries coming out and books coming out. And they were going to go to the premiere of a new documentary tonight in the Village called Arrest the Midwife that I look forward to checking out. And they had mentioned several other documentaries they recently saw. So so those are some some reasons to hope we have lots of in the momnibus bill. Hopefully, I don’t know what the latest on that is. But but, you know, there are there are sparks of hope. There are advocates. There are plenty of us really trying to advocate for change. And I will also add, of course, Evidence Based Birth® is a huge change maker in this space. And I’m so grateful that you not only point us to evidence, but you also really do, you know, care, anti-racist work and advocacy work and work for LGBTQIA folks. All of these people who really need that support and we need more research around these different demographics as well. So thank you for the work that you do. You give me hope every day.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:46:05:

We’re glad we can be of service. So with your podcast, you said you kind of have like a takeaway point. Associated with every episode. For this episode that you’re recording right now, if you know any birth worker or family expectant pregnant, parent could take one message away. From today, what would it be?

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:46:28:

Well, I often do like an affirmation at the end of my episodes that’s led by the guest. But, and I often say, you got this, you know, affirming kinds of things. But here I’ll be more sort of general, less like affirmation-y. I would just say seek out stories that will help you prepare for as well as fully engage with this experience and this metamorphosis that you’re going through. Stories, education, support. Those three things are to me the like trifecta of really preparing us as best as we can for this metamorphosis we’re going through into into parenthood.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:47:07:

I like that. SES, Stories, Education, Support.

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:47:10:

You just came up with an acronym. Thanks.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:47:13:

Instead of socioeconomic status, we’re going to do Stories, Education, and Support.

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:47:18:

Perfect.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:47:19:

Yes. Well, thank you, Lisa, so much for coming on the Evidence Based Birth® Podcast. It’s truly an honor to have you here and best wishes to you with everything you’re doing in New York City and with your podcast and everything else.

Lisa Greaves Taylor – 00:47:33:

Thank you, Rebecca. It’s been so much fun to chat with you. Really appreciate it.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:47:38:

This podcast episode was brought to you by the Evidence Based Birth® Childbirth Class. This is Rebecca speaking. When I walked into the hospital to have my first baby, I had no idea what I was getting myself into. Since then, I’ve met countless parents who felt that they too were unprepared for the birth process and navigating the healthcare system. The next time I had a baby, I learned that in order to have the most empowering birth possible, I needed to learn the evidence on childbirth practices. We are now offering the Evidence Based Birth® Childbirth Class totally online. In your class, you will work with an instructor who will skillfully mentor you and your partner in Evidence Based Care, comfort measures, and advocacy so that you can both embrace your birth and parenting experiences with courage and confidence. Get empowered with an interactive online Childbirth Class you and your partner will love. Visit evidencebasedbirth.com/childbirthclass to find your class now.