EBB 362 – Doula Wisdom and Holistic Practices for Pregnancy and Postpartum with Carson Meyer, Doula and Author of Growing Together

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:00:00:

Hi everyone. On today’s podcast, we’re going to talk with Carson Meyer about doula wisdom and holistic practices for pregnancy and postpartum. Welcome to the Evidence Based Birth® Podcast. My name is Rebecca Dekker, and I’m a nurse with my PhD. And the founder of Evidence Based Birth®. Join me each week as we work together to get evidence-based information into the hands of families and professionals around the world. As a reminder, this information is not medical advice. See ebbirth.com/disclaimer for more details. Hi everyone and welcome to today’s episode of the Evidence Based Birth® Podcast. Today I’m so excited to introduce Carson Meyer. Carson is a doula and Certified nutrition consultant who has supported hundreds of families on their path to parenthood. She hosts circles for families across the country to help them access community and information on healthy pregnancy, birth, and postpartum practices. Carson also leads mentorship opportunities for new and aspiring doulas. Her work has been featured in Elle, Vogue, Goop, and the LA Times. Carson is also founder of C & The Moon, a clean skincare line founded on the belief that the way we care for ourselves is intrinsically linked to the way we care for the planet. Carson graduated from NYU’s Gallatin School of Individualized Study in 2016, and she now lives in Western North Carolina with her husband, Jonathan, their daughter, Lou, and their Bernie doodle, Polly. This spring, Carson published her first book, Growing Together, and she’s here today to talk with us about doula wisdom and holistic practices for pregnancy, birth, and early motherhood. Carson, welcome to the Evidence Based Birth® Podcast.

 Carson Meyer – 00:03:14:

Thank you for having me on. I have to say it’s so surreal and exciting for me to be on and to hear your intro in real time because I’ve listened to your podcast for so long, and I really couldn’t do what I do. I couldn’t have written my book without the work you do and what you make possible for parents and doulas. So I just want to say thank you.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:03:33:

Well, we are honored to have you as well. And you’re welcome. We’re excited that we’ve been able to be of service for you. So, Carson, I know you have a unique story and path to finding doula work. Most people come to doula work after they’ve had children. You started when you were younger, before you had a child of your own. Can you talk with us about what inspired you to become a doula and how that path evolved over time?

Carson Meyer – 00:03:57:

Yeah, so I have a long answer and a short answer. I’ll spare you the long one, but I will say that I do believe that my own being born, my mother’s birth of me unconsciously played a big role in it. And when I hear my own birth story, I know that a doula was lacking in the birth experience and that support that I know my mom, even though she was surrounded by so many loving family members and friends, that that was something that really could have impacted our experience for the better. But cut to my first year in college, I believe, and I was at Gallatin studying mind-body connection. I was always really interested in holistic health and I was assigned to watch The Business of Being Born. Which I’m sure many of your listeners are familiar with. And that documentary changed my life. It completely blew my mind. It was the first time I’d seen unscripted birth, right? The non-Hollywood depiction of birth. It was the first time I’d ever seen images of home birth. And I was so blown away. I was so touched. I had had sex ed in high school. I learned how not to get pregnant. I learned to be really afraid of pregnancy, you know, for good reasons when you’re 13, 14 years old. But I couldn’t believe after watching that documentary that there was no curriculum later on that was going to help me untangle those fears and feel more confident as an adult woman in what my body was capable of. And then the other part of me watching that film was just horrified and devastated to learn about the healthcare system in the U.S.., specifically around maternal healthcare.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:05:36:

Yeah, I think that film has had a huge impact on many people all around the world. I know it impacted me when I saw it as well. And the depiction was really jarring. You know, the contrast between what truly supported birth could look like and then what a birth that was not only highly medicalized, but where autonomy was taken away and people were treated as if they were machines or, you know, they were depersonalized, dehumanized as patients. And you kind of see that striking contrast.

Carson Meyer – 00:06:05:

Yeah. And I think that that’s all you know as a young woman. You don’t know the alternative. You don’t know what it can be. Unless you have the unique experience of being taught from your mother or women in your community who are passionate about this topic. But I often say, because a part of me felt, I was kind of angry. I was like, why was no one, like what was, I called my mom. I was like, who’s going to tell me? My sisters had kids at the time. And I realized it wasn’t that they were keeping a secret. It’s that a lot of the women that came before us don’t feel really empowered or didn’t feel empowered in their birth.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:06:36:

Mm-hmm. They had traumatic experiences that they don’t necessarily want to talk about.

Carson Meyer – 00:06:41:

Yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:06:42:

Yeah. And there’s still a stigma to talking about birth and breastfeeding and human reproduction. I know my youngest is 11 and she’s in fifth grade and she’s always educating her friends about she’ll say the word uterus or she’ll talk about the placenta and they get so grossed out. And I’m like, you guys should not be grossed out by this stuff. Like she’s just trying to like talk about the body like it’s a normal thing. So.

Carson Meyer – 00:07:07:

It’s so true. And it makes me so excited for the future when there are so many young girls and women who are changing that.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:07:15:

Yeah. So how did your journey as a doula then evolve over time? So I’m assuming you entered the field, you started attending births, and then what happened?

Carson Meyer – 00:07:24:

Yeah, so I was attending births in Los Angeles, where I’m from, for years. And then COVID happened. And as you know very well, many doulas were not allowed in the hospitals. And I was realizing that, you know, in not being able to be there to support my clients, that there was this opportunity to set my clients up, to walk into the hospital, knowing more than they ever thought they needed to know about preparing themselves and their options. So that really, I mean, and I think doulas obviously have always have tremendous value in the hospital, but that they could walk in, their partner could walk in and feel totally equipped to navigate without me. And I also noticed in that time that there was a loss of community. Baby showers weren’t happening. The in-person classes weren’t happening anymore. And so I started the Growing Together Circles, which was a group of around 25 women in each circle. And for 12 weeks, we go through, and they still run, but Pregnancy Health, nutrition, mind-body connection. We go into, you know, the more typical childbirth education, creating the birth intentions or the birth plan, what to expect, postpartum, breastfeeding, and like cover the whole journey. And it gives, it’s so much more comprehensive than most of your average childbirth education classes. But it also brings together women who are still years later on our group community being able to support one another. And so that was so exciting and really changed how I work and approach birth. And I continued to attend birth until I had my own daughter two years ago. And I really stepped back from that just for this season so that I can, I was breastfeeding and co-sleeping and, you know, wanted to rest a little bit more in that time. And so I’ve been, it’s been such a gift to be able to. Work virtually in a group setting, work with women all over the world, and then focus on also writing this book, which will hopefully provide that to more women.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:09:29:

So tell me about what it was like then, if you don’t mind, giving birth after attending, you know, more than 100 births and being involved in educating people across the United States.

Carson Meyer – 00:09:39:

Yeah. So it was, I mean, I feel so fortunate because I’ve really had this, you know, nearly a decade of preparation before and I’ve got to see births and really integrate and heal my own relationship to it. And I had, I gave birth at home and it was a wonderful, wonderful experience. I, it was, yeah, it was a perfect experience and everything I wanted, but I laughed because I definitely envisioned that I was going to go into birth. I would be like so serene and oming and meditating and I’d have this just, you know, peaceful looking birth. I was the loudest, more profanities screamed than any birth I’d ever witnessed. I was convinced there had to be something wrong with me. I was like, there’s no way it was this hard for all of my clients because they made it look so easy. I begged for the epidural. I think I bit through my poor husband’s skin. I mean, I was so humbled and so brought to my knees and it was wonderful. But I was, yeah, it was really wild to go through it yourself because nothing can truly prepare you for the, I think, not just like the physical, but the spiritual transformation. Happens through that portal.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:11:21:

That sounds amazing.

Carson Meyer – 00:11:22:

Yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:11:24:

Did you have a doula yourself then?

Carson Meyer – 00:11:27:

You know, it’s funny I didn’t. And mostly because I had just moved right when I got pregnant. And so I came from California where all my best friends are doulas. I have this amazing community to North Carolina where I didn’t know many people in the birth community. And because I just wanted it to feel very intimate, I decided not to. The midwife had an assistant who ended up being my postpartum doula and was fantastic. And so she was there towards the end. But it was just my husband and I and my midwife.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:11:59:

I had something similar with my second birth. Because my midwife was going to stay with me from start to finish along with her assistant. We decided not to have a doula. And then the third birth, we did have a doula because we needed more support. But every birth is different. Every situation is unique.

Carson Meyer – 00:12:19:

Yeah, same thing. My midwife was like doing the double hip squeeze.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:12:22:

Right.

Carson Meyer – 00:12:23:

I can be there and be that.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:12:24:

But not every home birth midwife does that either. So it’s important to know what you’re getting into. Yeah. And even some of the midwives that provide continuous labor support here in Kentucky will often say, I really need you to hire a doula because it’s exhausting for me to, if it’s a longer labor, I can’t do that by myself and be your midwife for a long time.

Carson Meyer – 00:12:44:

And something I did prepare for is I had a friend on call and I knew if we transferred to the hospital. That I wanted somebody there to help us.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:12:54:

Okay. So you had like a transfer plan.

Carson Meyer – 00:12:56:

Yeah. I was like, and she’s not, it wasn’t a doula, but I was just like, I wanted, yeah, I knew that like there was somebody that was backup that I mostly for, I felt my husband needed that support.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:13:07:

That smart. Carson, I know one of your passions is like holistic practices. So do you have any that you’d like to share with our listeners and some key practices you recommend for either pregnancy, birth, or postpartum recovery, maybe that we don’t often think of as things that we can do to prepare?

Carson Meyer – 00:13:23:

Yeah, there’s so much to do, obviously, from a more physical and nutritional standpoint that we can talk about. But something that I think the book stands out amongst other books on the market is that it sees this process as not just a physical time, but a spiritual one. And one that requires us to not just prepare the body, but to really see how this is going to transform our lives, our relationships, our relationship to ourselves, to our loved ones, and bringing in a new soul, a new being with their own needs. And so a ritual that I really like. And was really important to me and something that I share with clients is just to start a dialogue with your baby. Whether that be through letter writing, journaling, or just simply talking to your baby. We know later on in pregnancy that babies can hear in the womb and recognize the sound of their mother’s voice. I found that in my pregnancy, this practice was so helpful in bonding, but also was really key in helping reduce stress for me. So a stressful event occurred, or I was worried, or just life was happening. I would contextualize it for my baby in the womb, by explaining it to her, reassuring her, like, you’re safe. These feelings are not about you. You know, this is what sometimes adults experience or go through. And by doing so, I feel like even though the purpose was to be supportive to her, I inevitably ended up mothering myself through it. And it’s something through labor that really served me as well. Because as I shared, as I was screaming the F word through every contraction, I also, you know, in the space between, use that opportunity to tune in and to be with her and say, you know. This is so intense for mommy, but you’re doing such a great job. And I’m so grateful that you’re here with me because we talk a lot about in birth, you know, creating mantras, which I think are so important and so valuable. But what came up for me and what I realized is it was hard for me to say those to myself, but came more naturally to mother her and that we’re connected. We’re one. And so creating these practices through pregnancy that are. More geared towards the emotional self, we inevitably are impacting and serving the physical self too. So that’s one that was really important to me. In the book, I share pelvic floor activities. Alison Oswald, who’s an amazing pelvic floor therapist. Contributes in the book. And my friend, Lisa Gainsley contributes a lymphatic massage. Sequence, which is amazing for postpartum. I have some therapists who share some inner child work as well. So each week has a journal activity and a prompt to help with the full holistic picture.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:16:16:

And these are things you can do on your own without having to… Go to somebody like their simple self-guided activities.

Carson Meyer – 00:16:25:

And of course, with pelvic floor therapy, I do think that there’s great benefit if there are concerns to work with somebody as well. And so the book is not intended to fill that for everything. But no matter what is going on with your pelvic floor, pregnancy and postpartum are going to change things and require us to tend to it. So what she offers is just a really basic way to connect for everybody, no matter what you’re experiencing at home to connect further.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:16:54:

I love your tip about talking to your baby, you know, especially through the latter half of pregnancy and even birth. I think singing might be another way of connecting as well. If you like to sing or if you want to learn lullabies, it’s a good time to learn. And even playing music. I know I have a connection with my kids where we’ll be listening to a specific song and I’ll be like, that song was when I listened to and sang to you all the time, you know, when I was pregnant with you. And they have been special connection with different pieces of music that they’ve been listening to since before they were born. Yeah. What about postpartum? Any holistic practices you’d like to tell us about?

Carson Meyer – 00:17:33:

Yeah, so I think in postpartum, I talk about the four pillars of postpartum support in the book. Nourishment, rest, support, and touch. You know, one of the most valuable ways, and I also talk about the reinvention of the baby registry, because sometimes to, you know, to have body work postpartum can be, can be costly. But we, if we’re really being real about what new mothers need and what babies need postpartum, it’s not the gizmos and gadgets.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:18:02:

Sure.

Carson Meyer – 00:18:02:

We need a car seat, some diapers, and some basic things. But most of what the baby shower and the registry are designed to do is to drive sales, right? And to get us to become bigger consumers. And so I love, there’s companies like Little Honey Money and some other ones out there who are reinventing the registry, creating funds for moms to get what they really need postpartum, which is that support. And so touch is a great one that can be through body work, you know, Abhyanga, lymphatic massage, pelvic floor therapy, massage, chiropractic care, craniosacral, all of these modalities are so valuable. And again, if you’re kind of planning and budgeting for this to be a part of your postpartum care, I think it’s tremendously more valuable than, you know, some of the cute outfits and things that are really fun and sweet, but ultimately are not going to provide a more harmonious and healthy postpartum season. But touch can also be through, you know, your partner, your friend, yourself. And so that’s why I’m really happy to have the lymphatic series that Dr. Lisa provides in there.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:19:12:

And what is that? What is lymphatic massage for our listener?

Carson Meyer – 00:19:15:

Yeah. So lymphatic massage is, it’s different from deep tissue because it’s very soft and gentle touch, but that’s actually the touch that our nervous system responds to the best because it’s really gentle and there’s infused with like really loving strokes. But especially after birth, there can be so much fluid buildup because of certain medications, right? We’re kind of detoxing from medications, perhaps after birth or just through the swelling of a birth and kind of changing from pregnancy. And so lymphatic can be a really great way to gently detoxify. In a way that is not going to create a burden or, um, yeah, it’s very safe. Modality. It can be done at home, can be done from somebody else. And Abhyanga specifically is an Ayurvedic practice that utilizes the lymphatic massage to help those pathways. And it also supports the immune system with warm oil. And postpartum can be a very dry season. We’re giving so much of our fluids, our hydration through our breast milk. And so this warm oil massage really helps to replenish the moisture that way.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:20:24:

I’m just really fascinated. Now I want to learn more about the topic of lymphatic massage because I think you’re the first podcast guest to mention it. So aside from your book, are there other resources or accounts people can follow to learn about that?

Carson Meyer – 00:20:37:

Yes, Dr. Lisa Levitt Gainsley has the Book of Lymph, which is amazing. She’s the one who contributes to my book, but she has a whole book on different lymphatic sequences. I mean, some are for skincare, for beauty. They can be used to help, you know, like de-puff the face. And there’s breath massage. There can help digestion, congestion, all different things, you name it.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:21:01:

Okay. Okay, we’ll be sure to link to that in the show notes. You briefly mentioned like, nutrition and nourishment earlier. Do you have any tips you’d like to share on like preparing for, you know, either dealing with pregnancy or preparing for postpartum recovery with nourishing yourself?

Carson Meyer – 00:21:16:

I became certified as a nutrition consultant for pregnancy and postpartum a few years into becoming a doula because I realized there’s not a whole lot of information offered within the obstetric model unless you get lucky and have a doctor or midwife even who’s just super passionate about the topic. But most doctors don’t get a ton of training on nutrition in medical school and have very little time in those 15-minute appointments to really talk about it. And so this gave me the tools to help provide that for my clients because it’s undeniable how much nutrition plays a role in our health and just how we feel day to day, our mental health, our emotional health, the health of our babies, even things like morning sickness, nausea, indigestion, constipation, all the pregnancy symptoms. And so one of the main, I think, like most basic easy things to implement is prioritizing balanced meals. And so making sure that every meal has protein, complete carbohydrates from unprocessed foods, and fats, healthy fats. And so by doing this, we’re going to inevitably stabilize the blood sugar. And I always say to my clients who are new moms or have moms of older kids, we know when our children are maybe having a tantrum or just very emotional, like we immediately are like, they skipped lunch or they just had a bunch of sugar. Right. We so rarely do that for ourselves. And we’re the same. We’re all the same. And so for especially postpartum, when there’s so many hormone changes, so little sleep, so much going on, it’s one of the most basic and I think effective ways. And it’s a factor we can control. We can’t control if our baby’s going to sleep. We can’t control like how we’re going to feel all the time, but we can absolutely control our blood sugar and promote more energy and balance throughout the day and night with that adequate protein and fat. Also, we know that Our brains rely on these omegas for healthy brain health. We know that there is some research that link to PMADs as well and show the association with those proper healthy fats. And that so much of it comes through our breast meal to our babies and helping their brain development. So, yeah, the prioritizing the balanced meals is the most collagen-rich foods. Things like bone broth, organ meats are really high in nutrients. They’re some of the highest levels of nutrients of any food that we have available to us. And so I think that’s another great resource for pregnancy and postpartum.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:23:54:

Yeah, and it kind of goes back to the title of your book again, like Growing Together, how everything you do for yourself also then has an indirect impact on your baby as well. Yeah. What about hydration? You mentioned that as well. So how do you encourage new parents to stay hydrated? Like what are any tricks or strategies for that?

Carson Meyer – 00:24:14:

This is where a partner can be a really great source. And I have to give my husband a shout out because he always made sure there was a big jar with a straw wherever I was breastfeeding, near the bed all the time. Because yeah, as a new mom, you have your baby in your hand. You’re just like trying to find the best place to stop and breastfeed wherever you are. So just having whoever’s supporting you remind you of that is key. I have a recipe for great jujube tea. Drink that I love. Jujubee tea is, or Jujubee’s in general, just really rich in vitamin C, which is great for the immune system, as we know, and then collagen production. So it’s going to help in healing hair, skin, and just, yeah, just healing those tissues postpartum. And so that is just a more tasty, delicious way to stay hydrated. And we would just keep that on the stove all day long and keep serving it.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:25:04:

That sounds amazing. I’m like, I want some of that right now. What about skincare? So I know you’ve had a, you know, in the past, and currently you have a skincare company. So how is self-care and environmental health related to pregnancy and postpartum wellness as well?

Carson Meyer – 00:25:21:

Yeah. So my company, C & The Moon, emerged around the same time it became a doula. And I think sometimes people are like, oh, those are so random. But at their core, they’re very connected. And for me and my definition of my work, but I really believe that it. We are only as healthy as the world around us, as our environment, and learning that babies are born with over 200 man-made chemicals in their core blood. Many of which are found in cosmetics and personal care products, in the ingredients that we’re putting on our skin and on our baby’s skin. And so C & The Moon is made with organic and really gentle ingredients made from nature to help promote that self-care from a healthy place. My mom, I was named Carson, my mom named me Carson after Rachel Carson, who’s the ecologist and a beautiful writer who wrote Silent Spring in the 60s. And she was really credited for advancing the environmental health movement and teaching us about bioaccumulation and how these toxins make their way up the food chain and how humans bear the greatest grunt of this. And babies who are drinking breast milk at the very top. But I often say, even though her work is not. Not really looped in with prenatal care or pregnancy or motherhood, but I often say that her work is perhaps one of the greatest advancements of prenatal care. Over the last century because she really helped us see and understand the interconnectedness of all of us and the relationship between Mother Earth and mothers. A lot of that can feel out of our control in today’s world, but I think that there’s, I know there’s so much we can do on a very basic level to promote it within ourselves and our homes. And there’s a study called the Hermosa Study that I’m not sure if you’re familiar with. But it’s really exciting for me. And I think for anybody who feels overwhelmed with this topic or like, oh, does it really matter? This study shows us, yes, it does. And that there’s really good news around it. So the study looked at teenage girls. And had them just take out any of the, there was four different chemicals that they were testing for, remove them from their makeup, skincare. And we saw the levels reduce dramatically in just days without a detox protocol, just from removal. And I think this is a really helpful reminder that our bodies are naturally detoxing. They already know what to do, right? And as long as we’re not overburdening them, with these ingredients and doing our best to minimize the toxic load, our body’s going to do it for us. And I know in pregnancy, I get the question of all like, what can I be doing to detox? And it’s not safe to do a lot of like heavy duty detoxing in pregnancy. We shouldn’t be doing that. But to rest assured that just by removal alone, we have research that shows just removing and replacing is going to improve. Levels in your body.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:28:24:

It’s fascinating. I think there’s more and more research and news kind of reports highlighting this, even though, like you said, this book Silent Spring was published in the 60s. I was surprised to find that this is one of the more controversial topics for our listeners. The last couple of times we’ve talked about this, we’ve got some interesting, angry feedback.

Carson Meyer – 00:28:46:

Really? In what way? What part?

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:28:49:

People are upset that we talk about like… Agricultural, chemicals, products. They say we’re fear-mongering.

Carson Meyer – 00:28:59:

Wow.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:28:59:

Yeah, it’s been it’s not what I would expect because, I mean, very high up institutions and researchers from all around the world are saying these are issues. We know there’s endocrine disruptors. We know. There’s chemicals we need to reduce from our intake in the population. So it was really surprising to get kind of this pushback.

Carson Meyer – 00:29:19:

That is so fascinating to me, Rebecca, and especially because one could say when you talk about some of the other stuff around birth, like how is that not fear-mongering, right?

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:29:29:

I know.

Carson Meyer – 00:29:29:

How do you have feedback too if you talk about a downside of an epidural or Pitocin that that’s fear-mongering?

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:29:36:

Yeah.

Carson Meyer – 00:29:37:

It’s so interesting how it’s selective. But maybe that

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:29:40:

next

Carson Meyer – 00:29:41:

time you share about it, like share about the Hermosa Study. Because I find that it’s an entryway that gives people hope because, I think sometimes what I know to be true about this topic because it’s so big and because it’s so sad and heartbreaking deeply. We can feel really, we can get angry. Like anger is an emotion with that. I’m just like, I don’t want to talk about it. I don’t want to hear about it. Can’t control it. I’m mad. I’m sad. And so like a defense mechanism to want to push it away. But this study I always bring up first because I’m like, look at this. This is good news. You in a toxic world can make some changes and totally have control.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:30:23:

Yeah. And I do think, you know, in EBB, we say, you know, if somebody uses the word toxic, it’s usually not evidence-based. But there is an actual evidence-based definition of toxins. And so, you know, when we’re talking about it, we’re talking about it in that sense. So I do agree with you. I think it is a defense mechanism. I think people feel out of control that there are so many products and foods that are harmful that we have a fear-based response. And for some people, that response is to reject that information that it’s harmful. But I do agree that there are simple things we can do. And we have, I think, two podcast episodes that have gone into this in depth that we’ll link to in the show notes about reducing exposure to various toxins. And again, I’m not using that word in like a fear-mongering way, but there’s an actual scientific definition of that. So we’ll link to those in the show notes. And hopefully, you know, the more we talk about it, the less people will feel that need to kind of push back against this topic.

Carson Meyer – 00:31:21:

And I just want to mention, because I’ve been on my own journey of this too, for anybody who maybe does feel that way or feel overwhelmed by it, just the reminder that it doesn’t mean we have to be completely obsessive about, you know, we’re never going to be perfect. We’re never going to eliminate it all. And so it’s not about this like all or nothing mentality or making yourself miserable and stressed out in the effort. But just like with any topic or what you do so beautifully in your work is just knowledge is power. And we get to choose how we take that information, how we utilize it to help us without letting it destroy our, you know, our peace and well-being too.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:32:07:

Yeah, I agree. So Carson, we’ve talked about holistic practices. I was wondering if we could talk a little bit about doula wisdom. And are there any common misconceptions about doula work that you’d like to dispel?

Carson Meyer – 00:32:21:

Yeah, I love this question. I mentor some… Doulas and this is something that we talk about quite a lot. But the first one is just that this, the myth that doulas are only for hospital, or sorry, only for a home or like unmedicated birth within the hospital. When in fact doulas, and you know, you might find a doula who has a certain niche, but doulas. Support all different births, Cesarean, home birth. Inductions, and then it’s not about bringing our idea of what is best, but being there to support a family and a mother through her needs, whatever those may be. And so everyone can benefit from a doula if they want one, no matter how their birth is, what they’re planning or however it unfolds. And the second one that more and more over the years I have come to realize in this work is that doulas are not there to advocate for anyone. For their clients, but really just there to help support a mother in being her own best advocate. And I believe that when we reframe this role of the doula or look at it this way, we actually give more power to the mother and help support her in a really crucial part of the rite of passage that’s going to help her as a parent. And that… Empowerment is when a mother finds and feels safe and supported in using her own voice. And so I know that that kind of challenges some of the beliefs as a doula. And I myself used to say, I’m a doula, I advocate for you. But more and more, I’m like, no, I’m there to be with you and you are your own best advocate.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:34:05:

Although I think you mentioned earlier, we don’t want to look at things all or nothing because there are times when someone can’t speak for themselves. Correct?

Carson Meyer – 00:34:13:

Yeah. And are you using it in an experience where they may feel…

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:34:19:

They may be in a freeze response or they might be in the middle of a contraction or they might be, for example, you know, what if a client is bleeding, and losing consciousness and they need someone to speak for them? So there are situations where they can’t use their voice.

Carson Meyer – 00:34:36:

Absolutely. And I don’t mean that we just sit there silently.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:34:39:

Right, right. I just wanted to make sure we get the, you know, every doula has a different philosophy and advocacy. So I just wanted to make sure that there are exceptions.

Carson Meyer – 00:34:50:

Yes. And I mean, one of my favorite ways to show up as a doula is to notice, because sometimes as clients, you’re not noticing things, right? You’re like, you’re in it as a mother. You shouldn’t be like analyzing the room and the space and everything. You should be present in the moment. And so my work is to be like, oh, I noticed they’re about to. Drop the happy, right? But I remember my client saying that that was something she wanted to opt out of. And what I mean by that is instead of me being like, oh, actually, that’s not something they’re doing is, you know, saying to the parents, hey, I’ve noticed that the nurse is about to do X. Do you want to have a conversation about it before? I remember us talking about it and it was something that you wanted to ask more questions about. And so we’re helping to facilitate conversation. We’re helping to amplify our clients’ needs. And to support them in advocating for themselves. But I think some people actually fear having a doula because they think that we’re going to come in and, quote, control the process or butt heads with the provider. And I have to say, your book is, it’s been years since I’ve read it, but I really, really, it left such an impression on me. And I think you just do such a fantastic job of pointing out why we are where we are in the hospital. I mean, as somebody who’s an insider yourself of just, you know, from the burnout rate to the… The liability to insurance companies, just the whole structure of it and what it feels like on the inside and really seeing. Seeing care providers as the good intended… Incredible people that they are and being in this work being of service with their goal of of helping and creating healthy experiences for mothers and babies, but within a system that is so broken. And so I really love as a duo to come into the birth space in the spirit of collaboration and working together under that shared goal. And for anybody who hasn’t read, I’m sure everyone here has read your book, but you just write it so beautifully. I really remember. It’s been years since I’ve read it, but I remember it so vividly, how you paint that picture. Because I think when doulas with anyone, when we see each other from that lens, there’s so much less conflict and so much more space. For the mother to feel really heard.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:37:14:

It’s interesting how you mentioned that doula can be like the eyes and ears in the room. It’s like the outside party who’s not part of that system.

Carson Meyer – 00:37:23:

Yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:37:24:

He sees everything that’s going on. How do you mentor new doulas with kind of like the overwhelm of all the things they have to do? Like they feel like they have to, you know, provide the hip squeezes and the massage and the hydration and get position changes, but then also noticing what’s going on with the dynamics of the medical team and things. Like what are some, what’s some advice you give to a doula who might feel overwhelmed by all of that?

Carson Meyer – 00:37:48:

Yeah. So, well, the first advice I give is when you’re becoming a doula or as a doula, to understand your why and to see if it’s coming from any of your own trauma. I think so many of us enter the birth space because we’ve been through something or we’ve witnessed something and have our own experiences. And We want to heal through that. And it’s a beautiful thing to want to transmute your trauma into healing for yourself and others. But I think it’s important to be doing work to make sure that you’re approaching your work and your client’s birth through a clean lens. Going to help bring a lot more clarity. And then I think. Inner peace for the doula and also sustain the burnout rate that happens as a doula too. It’s a lot of giving. And so to make sure you’re tending to your needs. Similar as you would like a postpartum mom or a new mama, a pregnant mama, like nourishing yourself so that you can show up at your best and not taking on too much is really important. And then I found that my job got so much easier in the birth room when I started the Growing Together Circles and really leaned into the information part. And this is where your work, again, is so valuable because the more you can prepare your clients. The more they’re going to set themselves up for an environment, a birth team, practitioner. That is supportive of what they actually want. And therefore, in the actual birth itself, ideally, there’s less that you have to be managing.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:39:27:

Yeah. And it’s hard to take in information when you’re in labor because you’re in your brain.

Carson Meyer – 00:39:31:

Oh, yeah. It’s impossible. Yeah. No, it’s not something you should be able to should be doing.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:39:39:

At least not all the education. During labor, little bits and pieces you could probably take in, but for sure. Is there anything else, Carson, you’d like to share with our listeners? Any other pieces of wisdom?

Carson Meyer – 00:39:52:

I mean, I’m just so excited for people to be able to read the book and then it’s finally out and available. I hope that anyone who’s listening today uses the book to take in all of the amazing, such valuable information that Evidence Based Birth®. Brings to you and makes digestible for me and for parents. And then you also focus on the spiritual, on the emotional. Remembering that you are an individual, like having a truly divine experience as bringing forth life. And there is great value, especially in the end of pregnancy, in slowing down and moving out of the analytical part of your brain, like there’s a time and place for that, moving into the body and being present in the joy. And the nuance and the mystery of matrescence. And so to follow your intuition above all else, collect all that information, read the books, listen to the podcast, and then put it through your own filter, release it, and follow what’s inside because you always know what’s best for you and your baby.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:41:16:

Thank you so much, Carson. It was a beautiful affirmation. I hope any parents or doulas who are listening feel inspired. Today’s podcast was brought to you by the Signature Articles at Evidence Based Birth®. Did you know that we have more than 20 peer-reviewed articles summarizing the evidence on childbirth topics available for free at evidencebasedbirth.com? It takes six to nine months on average for our research team to write an article from start to finish. And we then make those articles freely available to the public on our blog. Check out our topics ranging from advanced maternal age to circumcision, due dates, big babies, Pitocin, vitamin K, and more. Our mission is to get research evidence on childbirth into the hands of families and communities around the world. Just go to evidencebasedbirth.com, click on blog, and click on the filter to look at just the EBB Signature Articles.