EBB 368: Redemptive Cesarean after Planning a Home VBAC with Rikki and Nova Jenkins

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:00:00:

Hi, everyone. On today’s podcast, we’re going to talk with Rikki and Nova Jenkins about their decision to plan a home VBAC and the journey that led to a hospital transfer and ultimately a redemptive cesarean. Welcome to the Evidence Based Birth® Podcast. My name is Rebecca Dekker, and I’m a nurse with my PhD and the founder of Evidence Based Birth®. Join me each week as we work together to get evidence-based information into the hands of families and professionals around the world. As a reminder, this information is not medical advice. See ebbirth.com/disclaimer for more details. Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Evidence Based Birth® Podcast. I hope you have been enjoying our August episodes featuring Team EBB as much as I’ve enjoyed sharing them with you. If you’ve missed any of our podcasts this month, I encourage you to go back and give them a listen. Each episode this month is a chance to get to know some of the real people behind Evidence Based Birth® and the heart that they put into our work. So last week you got a chance to learn from Jen Anderson about recent trends in labor induction. Today we’re going to hear from EBB Instructor Coordinator, Rikki Jenkins and her husband Nova, about their powerful Cesarean birth story. And next week you’ll hear from Dr. Morgan Richardson Cayama, a research team member at EBB, who has a brand new handout on respectful maternity care who will be sharing with you and you can download next week for free. Another exciting thing happening next week is we will be opening the EBB shop for a fantastic Labor Day sale to celebrate all things birth and labor. Our laminated EBB pocket guides have been sold out for a while now and we’ve been getting a ton of emails and direct messages asking when are they going to be back in stock. So the good news is, starting next week during the special labor day sale, you’ll be able to build your own bundle of pocket guides for a fantastic price. So if you think you want to get your hands on a physical pocket guide from Evidence Based Birth® on comfort measures, labor induction, interventions, or newborn procedures, I strongly recommend you go to EBBirth.com and sign-up for our crash course on evidence-based care and that way you’ll be on our newsletter list and you’ll get all of our notifications about special events and releases. 

And now, I’d like to introduce our honored guests for today’s episode, Rikki and Nova Jenkins who are here to share their birth story. So first, we have with us Marc Jenkins, also known as Nova, and he is a Grammy-nominated producer, entrepreneur, and a proud girl dad. Nova is joining the podcast today alongside his wife, Rikki, to share the beautiful and powerful story of their youngest daughter, Amora’s birth. Rikki Jenkins is the Evidence Based Birth® Instructor Coordinator, and she’s also a doula, childbirth educator, and international board-certified lactation consultant, or IBCLC. Rikki is also co-founder of Heart and Soul Collective, a nonprofit aimed at reducing disparities for birthing families in Las Vegas, Nevada. Rikki is a girl mom to Nina Jean who is 8 and Amora Rain who is 18 months old. Rikki and Nova, welcome to the Evidence Based Birth® Podcast.

Rikki Jenkins – 00:01:38:

Thanks for having us.

Nova Jenkins – 00:01:39:

Thank you. Thank you. Glad to be here.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:01:41:

We’re so excited to listen to your story and kind of finally, I want to get all the details of this birth that was 18 months ago, but it still feels like Amora in my eyes is your baby. You know, she’s she’s so cute.

Rikki Jenkins – 00:01:55:

I know it goes so fast.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:01:58:

It really does. Yeah. So now that you’ve had time to kind of process everything that happened, could you start off by sharing what inspired to plan a home birth for Amora, especially after your experience with your first birth?

Rikki Jenkins – 00:02:12:

Yeah, absolutely. So during our pregnancy journeys, we had kind of a rough start. Our first birth ended in a miscarriage and then we got pregnant with Nina right after. And so, of course, being pregnant after a miscarriage, pretty much every day you’re scared of having another. So that birth was rooted in a lot of worry throughout the pregnancy. And then we tried to learn as much as we could, which kind of catapulted into why I’m here today, of course. And then our pregnancy experience, you know, I feel like was very disconnected with her. And our childbirth experience as well wasn’t the best. Even though we prepped as much as we thought we were prepping, we had a doula, but we didn’t understand the disconnect between like the hospital. And then, of course, learning the disparities and why we were treated the way we were treated. So fast forward to Amora’s birth. We did a lot of planning. We were dead set on having a home birth. Just based off of our experience, we really wanted an experience into, for me, I really wanted him to be included. I felt like with our previous pregnancies, it was very much like, oh, you’ve done your part, dad. So like, get out of here. So that was very important to me. And then, of course, having, I’ll say, the privilege of being a birth worker, kind of knowing the lay of the land, so being a birth doula to clients in the past. I feel like we were very secure in wanting a home birth. And I feel like by proxy, he’s a birth worker. And so we kind of went into it knowing like, okay, we feel safe. We don’t have a lot of the fears that, you know, most people would have, you know, outside of this work.

Nova Jenkins – 00:03:56:

Yeah, 100%.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:03:57:

Yeah. Nova, what were your thoughts on planning a home birth?

Nova Jenkins – 00:04:02:

I was excited. I was excited for the experience, really. Like before, it was like… The first birth, it was a lot more scarier thinking about doing that. I think mainly from the lack of education, you know, to feel like, oh, my gosh, having a baby. We got to go to the hospital going into the first one, you know, versus her years of experience and being in the community. And then being like, oh, man, home birth will actually be better, you know. And this is for the people that we had around us and had access to to provide that ideal experience.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:04:40:

And then, Rikki, for you, part of your goals for pursuing a home birth was to get a VBAC or Vaginal Birth After Cesarean because that first birth did end in a Cesarean. So was that part of your decision making? Is it hard to get a VBAC in the Las Vegas area?

Rikki Jenkins – 00:04:54:

Yeah. And I mean, it happens. We really wanted that individualized care. I really wanted care from a midwife specifically. Well, we both did. I really wanted that care. It’s unmatched. Midwifery care is unmatched. You know, our appointments aren’t rushed and just seeing, you know, I’ve had the privilege of going with my clients to their midwifery appointments and just seeing firsthand like, this is completely different. It truly is family centered care. And while you can get that in the hospital, it’s not always guaranteed, you know, we have the nuances of providers and what providers to go to, what providers take insurance. And so with Amora’s birth, we had a lot of privilege. We were able to do what we decided to do was both we did dual care. So we had an OB and then we had our midwife. And that kind of made us feel more comfortable, even though looking back, I’m like, I wish we just didn’t bother going to an OB because even in our transfer, we didn’t go through our OB because in the end, we weren’t a match, which a lot of people find that even with a provider who shares that they are supportive of a VBAC, I, you know, towards the end, we found what we kind of call the bait and switch of like, well, I’m not going to let you go past 39 weeks and I’m not going to let you, you know, do certain things. And so we really got to see like, okay, well, we’re staying with our midwife because we didn’t see this side of our provider until the end.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:06:22:

So you were having, I think some people call it parallel care where you’re kind of like getting duplicate services when the services aren’t integrated because they’re like two different systems. Right. So and then it sounds like you were looking for really individualized care and midwife led care and that kind of support and more intense support and like true support where you knew they believed in you. And, you know, their wishes were aligned with yours.

Nova Jenkins – 00:06:51:

I would say one of the biggest differences was like their intention for information. Like, and I say that, like, you know, when we go to the provider, it’s kind of like, you know, check boxes. This is this, you know, Tom’s got 15 minutes, you know, boom, and you’re out of here. Come back in three, four weeks, you know, versus our midwife and doula. That was probably one of the most incremental pieces is our sessions. Well, our doula happened to be a trained therapist. So we got the benefit of having like these like, counseling sessions when she would come, you know, she would be there for more than an hour. And we could talk about different experiences that we had. And, you know, we let a lot of stuff out, you know, we discussed things that we hadn’t discussed before, which was very beautiful, you know, emotionally and mentally going into that. And then for our midwife, you know, it was like, I can just ask her any question, you know, and she it was no rush, you know, I’d be sitting there cooking dinner while she’s getting checked and like, hey, but what about this? And what if this happens? And it was a very family orientated, very immersive experience. And that gave us a lot of peace throughout, you know, and I think one thing I valued most about this pregnancy was, at least for my part, to ensure that she had the least amount of stress as possible. Like if it didn’t need to be a stressful thing, then let’s not make it that, you know, and having that additional care definitely was whipped cream on the ice cream.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:08:34:

Yeah, I can just picture you three now and in the kitchen and yeah, the discussions with your midwife. That’s amazing that you were able to build that kind of trust with her. And so, and there was quite a gap between the second and third pregnancy, right? So were you finding though that you were processing things about the previous birth that you hadn’t really thought about or processed together?

Rikki Jenkins – 00:08:58:

Yeah. And that’s where, you know, the doula really comes in. Because I know, you know, they say you can’t be your own doula, you can’t be your own this, you know, but she was the first person who ever asked our first birth story and asked specifically to Nova. I don’t think we’ve ever had that discussion. And that was very healing to us because. It took seven years to even think about having another. I was dead set on never having any more just based off of our experience. And then it took a lot of discussion over the years to even get to the point of planning to have our next baby. Because we actually planned to get pregnant with her this year or 2024 because we got pregnant in 23. So she was kind of a year conceived early, but like we were planning for her. We, you know, interviewed our midwives and things like that. Like what, eight months before we got pregnant. So, yeah, it definitely took some time, but I feel like it was essentially the best time because it was like experience. And I got to see, you know, VBACs and things like that happen as a birth doula. So it gave me a different level of confidence too.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:10:09:

And what were some of the things you were hoping to avoid this time? That you had experienced previously?

Rikki Jenkins – 00:10:15:

Just based off of like experience stories we hear as doulas, I really wanted to, well, one, avoid a transfer, of course. My other main thing was, it was really like, I wanted to make sure that he wasn’t left out, that we both felt comfortable. But also I was really worried about not only the transfer, but like the care that we’d receive, right? Because we hear different things. Like some places they’re super supportive that we hear of, but that’s more of like the unicorns where we don’t always hear like the best outcomes. Previous clients of mine, we’ve had to really do a lot of advocacy and navigating because they were labeled as different things. We still have that stigma around home birth and going with a midwife. So that’s one of the biggest things that I was like, you know, I… really don’t want to be exhausted from the birth, you know, because you already have this. Defeated feeling when you’re transferring. And so I didn’t want to go to the hospital and kind of have this, oh, well, we told you type of thing, or you shouldn’t be having a home birth anyway. So that was one of my biggest fears going through the process, even having the tools, right, of knowing how to advocate. But that’s the last thing you want to do in birth, in labor. So, that was the biggest thing. And we did a lot of education on what that would look like, how we would want that handled.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:11:41:

Yeah. Yeah. And what was the reason for your Cesarean the last time?

Rikki Jenkins – 00:11:46:

The first time, heart rate decels. So Nina’s heart rate was like up and down, up and down. And so we really didn’t know. We didn’t read any about that. So we were really unprepared. I was dead set on having a vaginal birth. That’s something that we kind of navigated through. And it was very much like we weren’t understanding. I’m very much like, just tell me why and explain to me. And we unfortunately didn’t get that. It was a lot of fear. You know, they would pull Nova out of the room and say, you know, your baby is going to die. Your wife is going to die if, you know, she doesn’t make a decision. None of that was like really communicated directly to me. It felt like they were pitting us against each other. And so I felt like, you know, they eventually were like, you need to get a C-section, like stat, you know. So it was very different.

Nova Jenkins – 00:12:38:

And I thought we wasn’t married either.

Rikki Jenkins – 00:12:40:

We weren’t married. Yeah. We weren’t married at the time.

Nova Jenkins – 00:12:42:

It was even more of a disconnection from like, you know, you don’t really get to say nothing. Like she has anyone. It was cool. You know, it was just, but it really felt like I was like a negotiator between her and what she was going through, you know, because she’s physically going through this trauma.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:13:01:

Right.

Nova Jenkins – 00:13:01:

While, you know, physical and mental. And then, you know, I’m like on the sideline, kind of like, hey, you know, let’s go do the doulas. It’s like, oh, my gosh, I don’t prep me for this. And the nurse is like, well, this is what it is. You know, it was really hectic. I just felt like a high, like a critical negotiator.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:13:23:

Like in a hostage situation or something.

Nova Jenkins – 00:13:26:

Yeah.

Rikki Jenkins – 00:13:26:

Yeah. And it definitely felt like that, too, because I remember just the one point that was the most traumatizing where they were like, because I was like, you know, I want to talk to the provider. Like, please let me talk to the doctor, because when we came in for triage, he was like super cool. He came in with like a coffee and he was like, everything’s fine. And what time do you want to have your baby? You know, and he was like, do you want Pitocin? And I was like, no, I want to have a baby naturally, blah, blah, blah. And so he was like, okay, cool. I’m going to go do a C-section and I’ll be back. And then the minute he left, it was a completely different story. The nurses came in and they were like, oh, he’s going to want to break your water, et cetera, et cetera. And I’m like, this is not the conversation we just had. And so it was very much like, can I talk to the provider? I want to talk to the doctor. I don’t want to necessarily talk to you all anymore. And they were like, you know, he’s not going to come in here unless you consent to your water being broken. And at one point I was like, okay, I consent. And then when the doctor comes in, then I’ll have a conversation. Cause it seems like that’s the only way, but it was very much when he came in, this part was very traumatic. When he came in, the nurses literally held me down as he was breaking my water. And I just remember screaming like, no, no, no, like, this is not what I want. I need to talk. By that time, you know, he broke my water. And I remember like screaming out in pain. And I will always remember that he was like, if you can’t handle me breaking your water, how would you think that you could have a vaginal birth? And then from there, I, you know, remember having the visceral reaction of like, it felt like I left my body from that point. Like, and then, you know, they kind of went to through surgery and all of those things after that. But I remember just like checking out and was like, whatever. And I don’t remember like coming back into my body essentially until after, you know, well, after the birth and, you know. Probably for a long time. So it was a very different experience. And after that, I was like, why did this happen to me? You know, we did all the things we, we had all the education or so we thought, and it still happened.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:15:35:

How traumatic. And like what you’re describing is just outright obstetric violence. You know, you were trying to avoid a transfer. Now I can see why, you know, you’re trying to avoid literally people attacking you in your last birth. So yeah, I can see how you had a lot to process. And I think we’ve had somebody else on the podcast before we can link to it in the show notes about the importance of processing your Cesarean before you attempt your VBAC or even deciding if you’re going to have a VBAC versus a repeat Cesarean. There’s a lot of stuff you have to unpack.

Rikki Jenkins – 00:16:08:

Yeah, absolutely. We really got the opportunity. That was really the only opportunity. And it’s interesting because I was like, oh, we’re good. You know, we’ve got here. You know, it’s lots of years.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:16:18:

It’s years later.

Rikki Jenkins – 00:16:19:

Yeah. We were asked the question and we were like, wait, we didn’t truly process this. And so I was really grateful that we were able to do that before our experience.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:16:31:

Nova, you mentioned, you know, getting support from the midwife and the doula and Rikki mentioned education. Was there any like specific education you all did or preparation for getting ready for a VBAC at home?

Nova Jenkins – 00:16:45:

Yeah, I would say extensively. I mean, we took every birth class again, you know, even though, you know, we kind of knew all the information. I think that was like a four-week course or something.

Rikki Jenkins – 00:16:56:

Yeah, we took Flor Cruz’s one because it’s it’s more advanced. I wanted some because we obviously we had the base knowledge. And so I was like, I want something where we feel pumped up. So that course really felt like it was geared towards like someone who’s already given birth before. So it was a little bit more advanced and really got into the nitty gritty of like, okay, what is it going to look like? How do you plan? What is the logistics versus like, you know, here’s the beginning. And it was like I wanted to skip that because we already knew. So, yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:17:27:

And what was the name of it again?

Rikki Jenkins – 00:17:29:

It was Flor Cruz, @badassmotherbirther on Instagram. So she had she had a birth class.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:17:37:

That makes sense. That would get you pumped up. And so you’re planning a home birth with the midwife and a doula then as well.

Rikki Jenkins – 00:17:44:

Yeah. Yeah. And the midwife, it was cool because and even picking the midwife, which is hard because it’s like I know them. And so but it’s different. Again, I wanted to make sure that he felt comfortable. And I also wanted to kind of step into the I’m just pregnant role. Right. Like I didn’t want to necessarily be looked at as, oh, you know, everything is good. And the midwife we’ve chosen, Camilla, she was really good at saying, like, I get that, you know, these things, but let’s make sure that you understand and how this applies to you. And then we wanted someone who was like, I’m going to tell you the truth. Like, I’m not going to sugarcoat. I’m going to make sure. And she’s like, at any point, if I feel uncomfortable, I will transfer you. So that’s a little bit of what we really wanted. I really wanted to make sure that our whole family could be included. That was really important to me. So I really appreciated that.

Nova Jenkins – 00:18:39:

That was big. Camilla was real big on not being a hero. You know, she made that really clear. She was like, you know, I believe in it. Obviously, this is what I do, but I’m not taking chances and taking risks. Like if it don’t make sense, if something’s not lining up, we’ll go to the hospital. And that, you know, that honesty and the setting that expectation was a very good navigation going into the labor days.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:19:05:

So we know the midwives, including both of you in your care. What about Nina? What was your plan for having your little girl at or not at the home birth?

Rikki Jenkins – 00:19:16:

Yeah, well, she was there and her being a part of like the prenatal care. And that’s something that I wanted to is her included. And then, of course, our dogs. Unfortunately, our oldest dog passed away when I was pregnant, but she was included in everything. She was included in the prenatals. She, you know, listened to the heart rate. She took my blood pressure. You know, our midwife brought her kids to our appointments, too, and they got to play together, which was nice because it was like she got to be occupied while we, you know, discuss different matters.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:19:49:

That’s amazing. Yeah. So tell us about Amora’s birth story. You know, how did labor begin?

Rikki Jenkins – 00:19:56:

Yeah, it’s funny because when we shared our story on Instagram and then like my birth worker friends was like, you had the most birth worker-y birth, which whatever that means, but it tracks. So it was funny because we were going to bed. I think we were like, we had just… got done eating and we were going to bed. Is that okay? And we were going to bed and I remember feeling a trickle. And I was like, what is this? And you know, like when you’re pregnant, you had all of these fluids, so you don’t really know what’s what. And so I went to the bathroom, I came back and I was like, I’m still trickling. But I had been, you know, having Braxton Hicks before, like for a couple of days. And I was like, You know, I think my water broke, but it’s weird because it’s not in the sense of like the pop and your water breaks. Like I was leaking. I was just leaking. I was literally leaking. And I was like, what in the world? And then I remember like my contractions getting, you know, stronger and of course closer together. And I was like, you know what? It’s fine. Like it’s nighttime, which we know that’s when the Braxton Hicks loves to arrive. And I was like, it’s fine. Like, let’s just go to bed. Let’s rest. Like whatever. And then here he is in the corner. Like-

Nova Jenkins – 00:21:16:

Camilla.

Rikki Jenkins – 00:21:17:

No, it was not Camilla. It was Kaylee, our doula. And he was like in the corner, like texting, like, oh, her water broke. And I was like, babe, it’s fine. Like, I’m a professional. It’s never time when you think it’s time. And I was like, I’m good. Like, let’s just lay down, go to bed. And of course he’s like texting. And so we go to bed and then that’s when like they got stronger.

Nova Jenkins – 00:21:41:

And by that time she was like, call Kaylee. Kaylee was like, I’m up the street.

Rikki Jenkins – 00:21:46:

Yeah. It was very cool because everyone worked very intuitively. Like I really didn’t expect like Kaylee to get there. And she was like, you know, I was just going to camp out in my car from the way things were sounding. And I was like, it’s fine. Like, it’s going to take a while. Like you guys go and rest. But when she got there, everything got more intense. Like we went on walks. And I was like, you know, don’t bother Camilla. Like it’s not time yet.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:22:11:

Rikki, you’re just like taking care of everyone else. Because that’s what you do.

Rikki Jenkins – 00:22:15:

I was like, it’s fine. You know, just go rest. It’s fine. And so when Kaylee got there, she was like, you know, I’m here. And I was like, oh, I’ll just let you in. And I was like, really? It’s fine. Like go back to your babies. Like it’s great. And she was like, you know what? Okay. But let’s go on a walk. So we went on a walk. And I think like you were at home like prepping, even though I was like, it’s fine. But when we were walking, you know, I was fine. And she was like, Rikki, like your contractions are literally two minutes apart. And I was like, okay, like whatever. I was just very, you know. And so she called Camilla and, you know, our midwife and she let her know the situation. And, you know, from there, I feel like we just kind of went into labor land. And it’s so weird when we describe it because it really truly does feel like we were in a completely different like plane. I know that sounds very woo woo or whatever, but it really felt like everything was so intuitive. Our birth team was just there in it with us. And it felt like we completely left earth, essentially. You know, our baby was there. Of course, our youngest dog was there, like kind of like intently, you know, dogs can be very like, okay, what’s going on? You know.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:23:29:

Just watching you?

Rikki Jenkins – 00:23:30:

Yeah, just kind of watching. But it was very beautiful. Like, you know, up until we prepped the space, I had like a birth vision board and everything was decorated. We decorated our bathroom. We had rose petals that we’re still trying to get rid of. We had rose petals, everywhere. So it was very beautiful the way we set it up and things just, you know, got more intense. It was, you know, everyone was like taking pictures, which was great. And then I remember us getting in the bathtub. And we both got in the bathtub. And from there, everything just stalled out. And It was very strange, you know, and we do hear about this happening. It’s like, oh, you know, your body’s taking a rest. It’s fine. But from there, it just all stopped. Like we were both able to take a nap and my contractions never really picked up again. And they were like, okay, like, let’s get out of the tub. Let’s do some other stuff. Because we were in there for quite a bit. And then we started, you know, kind of laboring out. But ever since then, my contractions literally never picked up a rhythm again. They were intense, but they were very sporadic. You know, it even started spacing out. It was like five minutes apart, then 10 minutes apart. It was very, very strange. So I remember trying all the different things. That was one of my biggest things is I want to exhaust the list. I want to try literally everything. So that’s what we did, you know. And it felt like for me, no time has passed. But when I looked up, you know, we had a different midwife, you know, even though our midwife is still there, but she was sleeping. And then the backup midwife came with her sweet son. And he was so sweet. He was like, what, seven months? And he was just kind of hanging out. But everybody had taken a nap. Like, you took a nap, came back. Nina went to sleep.

Nova Jenkins – 00:25:23:

It’s close to 24 hours.

Rikki Jenkins – 00:25:24:

Yeah, this was like 20.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:25:24:

This is 24 hours in.

Rikki Jenkins – 00:25:26:

Yeah, 24 hours in.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:25:28:

And how many hours did you have the regular contractions before everything stalled?

Rikki Jenkins – 00:25:32:

For a good…

Nova Jenkins – 00:25:34:

12, 16.

Rikki Jenkins – 00:25:35:

Yeah, for a good 12 to 16 hours, everything was back.

Nova Jenkins – 00:25:38:

Yeah. And then into the morning and in the evening and then about 3 o’clock is where everything kind of stalled out. Picked back up again about 7-ish. And then by the nighttime, we were back at the hospital. So, yeah, it was crazy because she was doing everything right. Like, everything was right, you know? And it was such a long time. You know, typically, you know, you labor for this extended amount of time. And they’re like, oh, okay, something’s wrong. But all her vitals was coming out, right? You know, her, how far she was- The heart rate, the baby’s heart rate, how far she was dilated. Like, everything was just like… And honestly, and I know now… And she knows it now, I hope, that Amora just did not want to be vaginally birthed. Like she, the way she was positioned, she just wasn’t with it. She didn’t want to know for whatever reason. You know, I think it could have been a lot of different things, but it wasn’t anything wrong with Rikki. It was nothing that, you know, she had hit all the thresholds. Like I remember, you know, and I had tons of video, which we haven’t really looked back at, but of her in the shower pushing like.

Rikki Jenkins – 00:26:55:

The shower was my best friend. I was in the shower for so long. And it makes me grateful for like, you know, to have the privilege because we didn’t like run out of hot water. We had the special tank or whatever. And I was like, I was in there for a long time. Then we got out, you know, we tried literally all the things.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:27:16:

All the tricks in a doula and midwife’s.

Rikki Jenkins – 00:27:19:

Yeah, we did Walcher’s position, which the midwife was like, listen, this is the last resort. She was like, either it works or it doesn’t. So we did that through contractions. We, you know were-

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:27:31:

How dilated were you?

Rikki Jenkins – 00:27:32:

I never made it past six. So I was steady at a six because they were like, you know, we don’t typically do checks, but we kind of have to see where you are. So I never moved past a six.

Nova Jenkins – 00:27:43:

Yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:27:44:

Wow. You’re stuck there for a really long time.

Rikki Jenkins – 00:27:47:

Yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:27:48:

And then how was the decision made to go to the hospital?

Rikki Jenkins – 00:27:50:

Yeah, for us, it was very much, again, that list. Like I was like, I want to make sure I don’t want to look back on this and be like, oh, we should have tried that. Or, oh, we should have waited. Right. And our doula. Again, she was very open. She was like, listen, she was like, you’re doing great, you know, because I was like, I can still go, you know, whatever. And she was like, you’re hitting a wall. She was like, I don’t want to see you not be able to make the empowered decision on your own. And this turns into something where, you know, you can’t make the decisions.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:28:24:

Yeah.

Rikki Jenkins – 00:28:24:

So she was like, you know, we can try a couple more things. But I think at that point, you should think about, you know, transferring. And so we had a conversation. I remember it was like in the in the bathroom. And it’s so funny because I was like, I can be modest because we’re going to have, you know, photos and things like that. And I was like completely naked, you know, doing birth stuff. But I remember us having a conversation and I was like, I am tired. And it’s interesting because we talk about maternal exhaustion and obviously at EBB we do. And it’s not how I thought, you know, like I always thought of maternal exhaustion as like, oh, you overexerted yourself or you got too excited about the labor. And then you kind of had no more stamina. But for me, the exhaustion was doing all the things and then no progression. Right. Like the baby wasn’t descending. I wasn’t dilating, but I was like effaced a lot, which is weird. But that was the true exhaustion point for me because I was just like, well, why am I going through this? Why am I having these, you know, contractions if it’s not doing anything?

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:29:32:

Something was stopping it from working.

Rikki Jenkins – 00:29:34:

Yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:29:35:

Yeah.

Rikki Jenkins – 00:29:36:

Yeah. And so that’s why I was just like, you know what? And then I remember at the point we decided and that was like. Okay, you know, let’s do it. So from there, we kind of switched gears. Luckily, during pregnancy, you know, one of the things that we were instructed to do was to pack the bag, even just in case. So we already had our bags packed. Our midwife, they both called around to the different hospitals to see, like, who would take me. Coincidentally, lots of them were, like, either said, I think they were very confused about the situation because they were like, well, is she pushing? Like, what’s going on? And some were even like, you know, we’re full. And they were like, we don’t take her insurance. You know, so we kind of had to go down the list. And then finally, we selected one. And they were like, because I had made the decision that if I wasn’t having the vaginal birth at home, I’m just going to get another C-section. Like, I don’t want to continue there. I don’t want to go through all of that. Just, you know, I want to be able to decide that for myself. And so I think they were kind of confused because I was like, yeah, I just want the C-section. And they were like, well, we don’t have any ORs available. So you’re just going to come here and you’re going to. You’re going to labor here. And I was like, whatever, like, let’s just go, you know, because if it does turn into a true emergency, then they’re going to have to, you know, do this Cesarean. But we kind of took our time, you know, we got childcare set up. So we waited for his mom to come to take over and to watch Nina. And then we kind of like cozied on over.

Nova Jenkins – 00:31:05:

It was a real, I was driving pretty slow, you know-

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:31:09:

It wasn’t an emergency. It was just time.

Nova Jenkins – 00:31:12:

It was a vibe, you know, you know, she was exhausted, but it wasn’t in like, you know, the fitness exhaustion, like, I was just kind of like, Everything’s going right. I’m glad that things aren’t bad, but I’m just tired. I want to see the baby. We just want to see you get out on this side. I was driving over to the hospital, and I wasn’t driving fast because of the contractions. I didn’t want it to be too bumpy. When we got to the hospital, it was like… you’ll never believe it.

Rikki Jenkins – 00:31:47:

Yeah.

Nova Jenkins – 00:31:47:

From our past experience, it was probably the best experience that I could ever want for someone to have.

Rikki Jenkins – 00:31:57:

And when I think about it in hindsight, like it wasn’t the birth that we planned for or wanted, but I feel like it was the birth we needed. It was so much healing. Like when we got there, literally everybody, I don’t know what angels were with us that day, but it truly felt intuitive and guided by our ancestors. Like we were, I don’t know, we were smelling different things. Like I kept smelling like this rose perfume that we all smelled, but we didn’t have any rose perfume anyway. It was very beautiful. But when we got there, literally everybody was amazing. Like our midwife got there because we made the decision. We were like, you know, do you want your midwife to go? Do you want the doula to go? And we were like, you know, let’s have the midwife. I think she was the most rested out of everybody.

Nova Jenkins – 00:32:40:

And when you go in these situations, you know, and if you go by the stigma, most hospitals, you know, they don’t like midwives. They don’t like, they don’t like that crossover.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:32:49:

They don’t want the home birth midwife.

Nova Jenkins – 00:32:50:

No, you know, so our, you know, midwife is there and she’s Brazilian too. So it’s like, you know, Hey, it is what it is. And everyone’s just kind of playing this undercover thing. And it was like from the nurse, the intake nurse, she was just cool.

Rikki Jenkins – 00:33:04:

She was so amazing. Literally everybody was so amazing. It’s not anything that I’ve experienced, you know, as a birth doula. But when we got there, you know, the nurse was super amazing. She was like, okay, like, let me take your vitals. You know, we got checked in super fast because they said that they were busy, but there was nobody in the lobby or anything.

Nova Jenkins – 00:33:22:

There’s a room sectioned.

Rikki Jenkins – 00:33:22:

We were sectioned off by ourselves. There was nobody else in the triage room. Like. um, and- she was like gonna have to check you and I was like do you have to and she was like unfortunately I do but I will wait as long as you want to wait it’s fine-

Nova Jenkins – 00:33:39:

They asked for consent for every little.

Rikki Jenkins – 00:33:43:

They asked for consent for every little thing. Yeah every little thing.

Nova Jenkins – 00:33:45:

Hey I’m about to do this hey can I do this can I do that can I and you know and knowing this and kind of being ready to be like I’m about to do this again it was like-

Rikki Jenkins – 00:33:55:

Because we went in, you know, armed, armed and ready to like have to advocate and all the things. And that was the big thing that we focused on for him, obviously, because I was in labor. But yeah, our midwife got there before we did. We got checked. And it’s very funny, like speaking with and I we talked with the team about like neurodivergence. The most annoying thing for me was that my water was still trickling. Like it doesn’t stop in that sensorily. That was so annoying. But the triage nurse was like, okay, you know, you’re at a six. And I was like, you know, still at a six throughout this whole thing. But the baby on the monitor baby was doing great. And I was like, okay, this is great. But I was still on the fence about the provider. Right. The doctor. And she came in and he had went because we wanted to save our placenta. We didn’t have a cooler or anything. So he had went to like 7-Eleven because there was no other stores around. So he like went and got came back with this cooler. But it was funny because the doctor was already talking to myself and our midwife. And our faces were like completely like blank, like blown away. And so he walked in and was like, is everything okay? And we were like. It’s great because she, the doctor was like, hey, you know, you’re doing great. Everything looks good. Like, do you want to keep laboring? And I was like, what? Like I expected them to offer a C-section immediately. And I was very already set. Right. When I got there, I was like, I’m getting a C-section. Like I’m done. And I told her, I was like, I’m getting a C-section. Like, just prep me. I’m ready. Like whatever. And she was like, let’s have a conversation. And she was like, you know, I don’t know what your future plans are with having more kids. But if you are planning to have more kids, it’s very important. That you try to have a vaginal birth. And I was like, What? And our midwife too, like the doctor was very grateful that the midwife stayed. Camilla had all of our records, you know, she had everything. She sent it right over to her and the doctor like thanked her and was like, thank you for sticking around. She was like, we have what we internally call like curb home birth where they just literally dropped off at the curb and they don’t have their records. They don’t have anything. So she like thanked her and, you know, even the doctor was like, are you guys okay? Cause we were just like in such disbelief by how well we were being treated and that she offered me consent to keep going. She was like, we can put you on med, you know, pain meds so that you can take a nap. You can wake up in the morning and you can try again. Like you’ve got this. And we were just like, What? And so she was like, I’m going to leave you to really make the decision because she’s like, we have time again. You’re doing great. And I want you to make an informed decision. So she left the room, she was like, whenever you’re ready, like, take your time. So we talked and I was just like. What in the world? Like, we really had to wrap our mind around everything. So we talked and I was like, you know, I’m done.

Nova Jenkins – 00:37:00:

Also, the option to do a Cesarean, you know, she confidently and boldly, it was Dr. Kim. I’m not going to forget it. She was like, I’m the best. She was like, you’re in a great hand. She said that everything will be done great. And, you know, she let me and Camilla in the surgery room to sit behind the curtain while she was being cut. And that was rare. I mean, you know, you’d be lucky enough. They let the dad in. But the dad and the midwife. So Camilla sitting there taking video of us. It was very-

Rikki Jenkins – 00:37:35:

Yeah. Because when she came back, when she came back and we were like, yeah, we’re, you know, we’re going to have the Cesarean. Because ultimately I was just like, she’s amazing. But what if we wake up tomorrow and we don’t have the same doctor? All of these little things kind of led to like, okay, let me just go ahead and get the Cesarean. Because I don’t want to lose this kind of high that we’re on, you know, because things are different. You know, the shift changes. And I’m sure the other doctors were great. But I was like, if I were to pick, I want her to do it. I want her to be a part of this. And it felt like I was in such control. Because with, you know, with Nina, I felt like out of control of everything. Like, you know, I didn’t even like the doctor who did that. And I have to look at his name on her birth certificate. So this time it’s like, I get to look at Amora’s birth certificate and love that this is the doctor that helped us. And so, yeah, when she came back, I was like, since everything is going so great, what can I ask for? You know, and we talk about this, you know, in the EBB Childbirth Class. And we talk about like how you can advocate to get certain things. And I was like, I’m going to ask for the moon. And so I asked and I said, you know, can they both be in the room with me? She was like, sure, no problem. And I was like, you know, can we have the drapes lowered? You know, can we have, can I do skin to skin in the OR? And she was like, sure, whatever you want, you know. And so when I got prepped and everything, it was just, it was so beautiful. Because when I got in the room, the anesthesiologist was amazing. It was this nice older black man. And he was really cool. But our team was all women except the anesthesiologist. And it was like two pregnant women, I believe. And they were just like. You know, okay, let’s do this. We’ve got this. And I think for some reason I was terrified of being able to feel anything. So I was like, can you please make sure that I’m numb? Can you please make sure? And they were like, we’re going to make sure you’re fine. I know. And so they walked us through, they let them in finally. And we were like, you know, ready to go. And I think at one point, I think I just, after all of that, I think I got so overwhelmed about, I think how well everything was going, I started to have a panic attack.

Nova Jenkins – 00:39:50:

That was the scariest part. Everything was going good. And I remember, you know, they had just cut her open and I can see over the veil, you know, she’s laying down and she’s talking, you know, she’s cool. And then she’s just like, I can’t breathe. She’s like, I can’t breathe. And I’m looking out now, hard it is. You know, here it is. I look up at the anesthesiologist. I’m like, yo, he looking at me like, look. See that? See the monitor?

Rikki Jenkins – 00:40:18:

The monitor.

Nova Jenkins – 00:40:19:

She’s breathing. Everything is fine. She’s having a panic attack. She was like, I don’t know, I don’t know. And then he hit her with something. He said, boop. She’s like, boop. She just went out. I was like, yo, what did you do? And she was like, she all right. I just had to calm her down so that she wouldn’t have a panic attack. She said she wasn’t breathing, but she’s breathing. Everything, she’s going to be fine. And, you know, lo and behold, even with, you know, the little, you put her out just a little bit, you know, but not too much. But she bounced back in like four hours, four, six hours. She came back and didn’t have like a bunch of side effects. And, you know, she came back into herself, you know, gradually. And was there, you know? So that was cool. It was scary, but, you know, that was fun.

Rikki Jenkins – 00:41:04:

That was the first time I experienced a panic attack or anything like that. And even then, like the anesthesiologist kind of knew because I told him, I was like, I don’t know. I’m kind of feeling iffy. And he was like, if you don’t calm down, I’m going to have to, you know, give you a little something to calm you down, which he did. But afterwards, like in the recovery room, I was still foggy, but the doctor, she came back in and she talked to both you, Camilla and myself. And she was just like, everything looks great. You know, baby is here. Everything is fine. And yeah, from there, it was great. Even the postpartum, you know, team, they were, our nurse was great. And everybody was super, super helpful. And so I really feel, again, like it was the birth that like, I feel like we really needed, you know, now that we’re looking back at everything, like, no, we didn’t get the home birth. But even then, like looking back at pictures, like for me, I was like, we did have a home birth. Like these photos was everything I thought it would be, you know, of course we had the transfer and the repeat Cesarean. But looking back, it’s like, you know, it’s not like something I look back on and, you know, get sad about. I think the only time we were sad about is I remember the pediatrician came in to like discharge us. She was the only one to use this language because everybody else was like, oh, you know, you’re a transfer, right? That’s fine. She was like, you had a failed home birth. And I, from there, I think I lost it. Cause I was like, that was the first time we had someone.

Nova Jenkins – 00:42:38:

And I was on like the way out.

Rikki Jenkins – 00:42:40:

Yeah, it was like the way out. And then I think that’s when I kind of like sunk in and broke down. But other than that. Yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:42:48:

Yeah, how rude.

Rikki Jenkins – 00:42:49:

I know. I was like, you know, that one stung, you know, because you don’t expect it, you know, and that kind of goes into like, you know, the words we say. Really do matter and how we are saying things. And so when she said that, I was like-

Nova Jenkins – 00:43:02:

Did she make you, like, walk out or something?

Rikki Jenkins – 00:43:04:

Yeah.

Nova Jenkins – 00:43:05:

She’s like, we ain’t got no more wheelchairs.

Rikki Jenkins – 00:43:08:

Yeah, I think that was the only thing. And it was like, oh, okay, this is, you know, but I was like, you know what? I’ll take it. Let’s just-

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:43:15:

That’s the only negative thing that happens.

Rikki Jenkins – 00:43:19:

Yeah, absolutely. And even the transition back home, like, you know. He went back home for a little bit and him and my mother-in-law, and I will always forever be grateful for this, is, you know, they went home and they cleaned up like all of the home birth stuff. But it wasn’t to where it was bare. It was still an inviting, you know, decorations and things like that because she loves to decorate. But, you know, they both were able to take away the home birth specific things without making it feel like it was a complete loss.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:43:51:

And Nova, I know you said something about the baby’s position. Did the OB say anything about how Amora was positioned when she did the Cesarean?

Nova Jenkins – 00:43:59:

Uhh. I don’t believe so.

Rikki Jenkins – 00:44:02:

She didn’t, but the midwife, she was like, I was really curious as to how, like, you know, maybe to give us some answers. And she said that she did see some molding on the side of Amora’s head. So she was kind of like, she likely was positioned, you know, with her head to the side. But the doctor, she didn’t say anything specific.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:44:23:

Okay. And yeah. And then my other thought was just about, you know, you were talking about the birth that you needed and how you had the healing experience of laboring at home and the beauty of that and that bonding experience, but then you also got to go back to the hospital and in a way kind of redo a Cesarean in a good way.

Rikki Jenkins – 00:44:41:

Yeah, it really did feel like I always hear like the redemption birth stories and it’s always like the birth that they want vaginal or whatever, but it felt like that for sure. Like it was, like you said, redoing and just another experience for sure.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:44:56:

Yeah. Any advice for people listening who are planning a VBAC or a home birth or worried about a hospital transfer?

Rikki Jenkins – 00:45:04:

Yeah, for me, it’s to make sure that you have support. Like, again, we were super lucky this time around. Like we had our midwife, our doula. To think about all of the things, right? Like they were like, okay, set this up. Our doula set up, you know, our meal train because she’s also a dear friend. So she set up a meal train. We were supported in every aspect. Like of course work, everybody like was checking in on us. And so if I were to say anything is to make sure that you have support from, you know, whether it’s friends. And I know speaking specifically to Vegas, that’s a hard thing because people are moving in and out. But I would say, you know, even if you’re hiring like a postpartum doula, postpartum is just as important as, you know, preparing for the birth. So postpartum, I really felt loved as well through like our meal train and people asking to come over to specifically help. So definitely have friends that, you know, can check in on you and have that support.

Nova Jenkins – 00:46:04:

Yeah, I would say to the people that are supporting the birthing person, you know, if you’re right next. You know, however involved you are in that way. The number one thing that I felt was important is to reduce the amount of experience stress that the birthing person has. Like you will be okay for however, you know, seven, eight, nine months, you know, don’t get caught up in the little stuff. Don’t try to argue, like don’t, it’s just not worth it. You know what I mean? Like, you know, dampen your pride, dampen your will, go through the course, you know, if you were someone who’s loving and respectful and, you know, and treating you right, you know, don’t sacrifice your mental health for it, but be wise enough to be, to not bring or do any additional stress. Like, you know, don’t go through, you know, an argument or something like that, where you may look back and be like, oh, I never really had to do that. And just don’t do it, you know, give them that space, give that, you know, that growing baby, that full energy, that full connection around the clock is very necessary. And I think that, you know, us living in that bubble is help play to the course of actions, help play to the experience of. You know, even with the home birth not going as planned, we were just so happy in such a good place that things just lined up how it needed to line up. And I just I think that’s important. You know, I think people get caught up in that stuff. And, you know, I think, you know, and people who aren’t holding babies, who aren’t birthing, you know, we don’t know. We just see unless you do know and you did know or don’t know. I don’t know. But I don’t know. And I know the majority of us don’t know. And so we have to take that step. And I don’t think that information is out there enough to say, you know, submit your will, you know, just just be cool.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:48:04:

Thank you for sharing how you created that loving, protecting bubble of peace for Rikki. And Rikki, thank you for sharing about the postpartum aspect as well. I was thinking about that. You know, it’s another aspect of planning for a VBAC or a repeat Cesarean. But when you’re planning for a VBAC, you also know there’s the potentially you may have a Cesarean as well. Right. So was there anything in particular you lined up? You said you had support with meal train and people coming by to help with different tasks. Was there anything else that was particularly helpful for your postpartum?

Rikki Jenkins – 00:48:40:

Yeah, I had my handy dandy cart. I had a cart full of like all of the, you know, postpartum needs, like the pads and the things like that. And then I needed a lactation consultant. My best friend, who’s also an IBCLC, which was very a humbling experience, but I needed her. So, you know, have those professionals lined up, you know, whether you’re, you know, interviewing during pregnancy, you know, most lactation consultants, they do the prenatal visits. If you’re not familiar with that realm. But having the people kind of ready to go and ready to come and help, like, you know, who does home visits and things like that. You don’t have to leave. That was the biggest difference was that I forgot that, you know, with, of course, with Nina, we had to, you know, leave the house to go for pediatrician visits. Right. You know, just seven days later and two weeks later and, you know, the likes. But our midwife came to us. Right. She did the baby, the well checks and things like that. And so that was very important. Just who can take you to appointments. Right. Like he had to work one day and our doula came and took us to a pediatrician appointment. So that was really nice to have that support. So kind of thinking outside the box.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:49:58:

If you can’t drive and you can’t carry a car seat. Yeah.

Rikki Jenkins – 00:50:01:

Yeah, absolutely. So thinking outside the box of what you may need and, you know, humbling yourself and not thinking that, oh, it’ll be fine. And we have each other like because we both ended up needing, you know, support. And so not just thinking, especially if it’s just you two, it’s like, no, you do need support. Who’s the child care? Who’s, you know, taking your oldest to school and all of those little things to think about.

Nova Jenkins – 00:50:25:

I also want to add for people who may be thinking about doing, you know, a midwife for the first time or something like that. Like, just be okay with trying it. Like, I don’t think you have to go into it saying, you know, hey, I’m going to get this midwife, you know, however much they might charge and say, once I make this decision, I have to go through this route. Like, it is a well worth the experience if, you know, you select a good midwife to go through that pregnancy and just was not. Innately provided by the medical system. You know, it empowers you. It gives you more education, more freedom to really, you know, have the birth that you want. And then, you know, if you got to get OB, go to OB to go get the blood work, go do the labs, go do however you want, but don’t feel like you have to make this ultimate decision at the beginning of your birth that you’re going to have your baby in a bathtub. Like, no, just the course of the midwife, obviously, because she didn’t birth at the tub, you know, that’s what you think you’re paying for. But it honestly, it wasn’t. It was, it was the full experience. It was the education. It was being at home. It was the less stress. It was like, you know, they just, they come into it different. Like, you know, a good midwife isn’t going to bring the last four patients problems into your household. You might get that from a provider just because of how overworked, because of how the system is, that you might just feel it. It’s not personal that, you know, a provider could be doing that, but it’s definitely worth dual care.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:52:01:

Yeah, that’s interesting. That’s a benefit of midwives I hadn’t really thought about before that because they focus so much on you, they can kind of leave behind other client issues and just focus on you. Whereas in a clinic, when you’re back to back to back.

Nova Jenkins – 00:52:16:

Right. Somebody might just piss you out.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:52:17:

Yeah. They’re just like, they’re bringing in a lot of stress.

Nova Jenkins – 00:52:21:

Yeah. I’m seeing you. You a human. I can’t have all humans for being human, you know?

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:52:26:

Well, Rikki and Nova, I’m just so grateful and happy that you were surrounded by people who cared for you and, you know, supported you in so many different ways and that you got to have the redeeming birth that you were hoping for, even though it didn’t look the way you planned. So. Thank you for sharing your story.

Rikki Jenkins – 00:52:44:

Thank you for having us.

Nova Jenkins – 00:52:45:

Thank you.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:52:48:

This podcast episode was brought to you by the Evidence Based Birth® Childbirth Class. This is Rebecca speaking. When I walked into the hospital to have my first baby, I had no idea what I was getting myself into. Since then, I’ve met countless parents who felt that they too were unprepared for the birth process and navigating the healthcare system. The next time I had a baby, I learned that in order to have the most empowering birth possible, I needed to learn the evidence on childbirth practices. We are now offering the Evidence Based Birth® Childbirth Class totally online. In your class, you will work with an instructor who will skillfully mentor you and your partner in evidence-based care, comfort measures, and advocacy so that you can both embrace your birth and parenting experiences with courage and confidence. Get empowered with an interactive online childbirth class you and your partner will love. Visit evidencebasedbirth.com/childbirthclass to find your class now.