EBB 376 – How to Find and Interview a Doula with Team EBB Members Julie Fors and Chanté Perryman

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:00:00:

Hi, everyone. On today’s podcast, we’re going to talk with Chanté Perryman and Julie Fors about how to find and interview a doula. Welcome to the Evidence Based Birth® Podcast. My name is Rebecca Dekker, and I’m a nurse with my PhD and the founder of Evidence Based Birth®. Join me each week as we work together to get evidence-based information into the hands of families and professionals around the world. As a reminder, this information is not medical advice. See ebbirth.com/disclaimer for more details. 

Hi everyone. Before we get started with today’s episode I wanted to let you know that something new is coming from EBB later this month. We have been wrapping up final touches on a project we have been working on all year and I wanted to give you a few hints as to what is coming very soon, so here are your hints and I’m going to give you three. Hint number one: doulas around the world have been sharing info with us about what has been changing in birth work, and some of these changes include increasing insurance coverage for doula care, increasing pressure to have an induction, and rising intervention rates. Hint number two: this project was inspired by doulas and shaped by doulas. And, hint number three: this secret project is unlike anything we’ve ever released before. So, if you’re all interested in what this project is all about I highly recommend you get on our waitlist for this new release. Just go to EBBirth.com/waitlist and sign up today for special perks and early access. And, if you want to send your guess to us as to what this project entails, feel free to email us at info@evidencebasedbirth.com and submit your guess to our team. I’m really curious to hear what you think is going to happen soon at EBB and with that let’s get started on today’s podcast episode which has to do with finding and interviewing doulas.   

Today, I am so excited to welcome Chanté Perryman and Julie Fors to the EBB podcast. Chanté Perryman has been supporting, educating, and advocating for birthing families for more than a decade as a certified doula, childbirth educator, and community birth organizer. She is currently in her final year as a student midwife at Mercy In Action College of Midwifery, and Chanté believes in informed birth choices along with respectful care and evidence-based education. Chanté volunteers with the Kentucky Birth Coalition advocating for legislative advancements for midwives, birthing families, and freestanding birth centers. Her newest endeavor is sharing awareness about period poverty and helping to supply menstrual products to local middle and high schools. She aspires for a world where birth can happen without politics, persuasions, and propaganda, but instead where consumers are being heard, treated with respect, and valued. 

Julie Fors is also joining us on the podcast. Her education in early childhood and experience as a mother led her to become a doula and childbirth educator as her children left the house for college. Julie became an EBB Instructor in 2018 and joined Chanté on the EBB programs team in 2024. Julie and her husband live near their two grown children in the Bay Area of California. In her free time, she loves to crochet, read, and swim, although not all at the same time. Chanté and Julie, welcome to the Evidence Based Birth® Podcast.

Julie Fors – 00:02:06:

Thank you.

Chanté Perryman – 00:02:07:

Hi.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:02:10:

So Chanté, we’ve had you on the podcast before multiple times now. So you’re a very experienced guest on the EBB podcast. I do want to let our listeners know up front that they can hear your Cesarean birth story and your first VBAC story on episode 79 of the podcast, and we will ALSO be having you on again in a few weeks where we’re going to talk about how you got into the path of serving as both a doula and a midwife. So our listeners will learn more about Chanté’s personal story in a few weeks. Meanwhile, Julie, this is your first appearance on the EBB podcast. Could you tell us a little bit about your story so our listeners can get to know you? Maybe you could start with how did you get into doula work?

Julie Fors – 00:02:28:

Yeah, actually, I got to that point in life after having been a stay-at-home mom for several years where people started asking, so what are you going to do with your life now that your children are graduating from high school and moving on? And I have a degree in early childhood. I worked with children. I’ve worked with young families for many years. But I was kind of thinking, yeah, what am I going to do now? I had done many, many different jobs over the course of being that stay-at-home mom. And I met a person who was pregnant, and she mentioned, you should check out Meet My Doula. And I was like, wait, what is a doula? I had heard the word, but didn’t really know what it was. And so I met with her doula, and she told me a little bit about what her job was. And I thought, this sounds amazing. Because I love the idea of setting a foundation for young families as they’re starting out, whether it’s in their relationships with each other or whether it’s in their parenting. So becoming a doula felt like I was going back and even starting earlier with that foundation of creating a good birth experience and a positive birth experience. And it seemed like a really good fit as well because my children were graduating from high school and leaving the house. So I had a lot more free time in terms of being able to be on call. It was a much easier job. That’s what really kind of inspired me to become a doula. And then shortly after becoming a doula, I found Evidence Based Birth® and became a member. And I believe it was 2016, which was shortly after you started and fell in love with EBB from the very beginning. And then when you opened up the instructor program, I was like, absolutely, I’m going to get on board with that. And I became an instructor in 2018. So that’s a little bit of how I decided to become a doula.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:04:16:

That’s amazing. And, you know, we appreciate having both of you on the team. You both add so much to Team EBB. And so I am so excited to have you two very experienced doulas and valued members of Team EBB here to give some insider tips and info about finding a doula and making sure that that doula is the right fit for you. So I was wondering if we could just like start off first by kind of a little quick baseline knowledge about how do doulas support someone during pregnancy, birth and postpartum?

Julie Fors – 00:04:49:

Yeah, I can take that one to start with. I think doulas support in three main ways, physical support, educational support and emotional support. That’s kind of the basics in that we’re actually doing hands-on massage, counter-pressure, helping with position changes. As far as emotional support, we’re really there to encourage, reminding the birthing person that they can do this, the support person that they are the rock that their birthing person needs. And educational, we’re kind of there to maybe explain some things that they might hear in the birth room that they might not understand or just kind of clarify some of the terms that they hear.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:05:32:

One thing that we talk a lot about at EBB is advocacy. Do you want to give a little quick spiel about how that falls into the doula role or not?

Chanté Perryman – 00:05:41:

Absolutely. You know, at one point in time, there was this thing where doulas don’t advocate. When I became a doula, I wanted to switch the narrative on that because doulas do advocate. Many times there are families who may have like a language barrier or are just soft-spoken, introverted, may not know to speak up for themselves. And I don’t want to say that doulas come in and like make decisions for the client or for the families, but they’re there to be a communication between the provider and the family. And so doulas advocate, like Julie said, by giving educational support. And sometimes if someone doesn’t have a doula, but they might take a childbirth education class from a doula, they’re learning language that they can use, whether in their home birth, birth center, hospital setting, that helps them to better advocate for their choices and the decisions that they’re making surrounding their pregnancy, birth, and postpartum.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:06:43:

And I think it’s important for families who are looking for a doula that if they want advocacy support, that that should be part of the interviewing process, which we’ll talk about in a little bit, because every doula has their own kind of individual philosophy about how they use their voice in the birth room. And some are, you know, more comfortable with just maybe very subtle advocacy techniques like education, and others are more willing to step into that role of speaking up. For example, if you are a solo parent or a single parent, and you don’t have anybody with you, and you’re in the middle of a contraction and that sort of thing. So I think we’ll come back to that. So we’ll put a pin on that. But I would love for both of you to give us some tips. So for people who are listening, when someone is looking for a doula, where do they even start their search? It seems so overwhelming.

Chanté Perryman – 00:07:36:

You know, Google….is everybody’s best friend right now, but that’s an easy starting place. Just putting in your location. Just random, like Philadelphia doulas. You know, like just put in where you live and put the word doula behind it or even the surrounding areas. Another great tip is to actually just ask some friends and family who you know have used doulas previously and just say, hey, you know, like I know you had a doula for your birth. Who did you use? Would you recommend that person again? Or do you have other suggestions? My third would be just wherever you’re birthing at, whether that’s with midwives or an OB. And just ask if they have a list or just some local recommendations for a doula.

Julie Fors – 00:08:22:

Another way that you can find a doula is by checking out the EBB Instructor Directory. Many of the instructors are also doulas, and we also offer the EBB Childbirth Class. And that’s another great way to find instructors who are teaching in your area.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:08:38:

And also, I want to point out that if you go to our Signature Article, the evidence on doulas at evidencebasedbirth.com/doulas. And you scroll down to the bottom, we have a list of all the doula directories that we could find when we were putting that article together. So there are general directories for finding a doula and there are doula of color directories as well. And so we have a list of both of those types. And, you know, different directories have their pros and cons, and not every doula is going to be listed on every directory. So I really like your advice, Chanté about looking for personal recommendations from family and friends and providers. Next question for you is to kind of share a little bit of baseline knowledge for our listeners about like, what does a doula do? So we can kind of have that foundation before we move on to finding and interviewing a doula.

Julie Fors – 00:09:30:

One of the most important things I think that a doula does is I think a doula slows down the process. A lot of times in the birth room, I feel like things can feel really emergent, especially when staff is coming in and asking questions and talking to you. And it feels like the birthing person and their partner have to make a decision right away. And so I feel like a really important part of being a doula is being kind of this calming presence that kind of slows things down in the birth room so that the birthing person and the support person have the opportunity to ask all their questions, get all the answers they need, and then also have a little bit of time to just kind of sit with it a little bit before they make decisions. So that’s a really important part of what I think a doula does.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:10:18:

That was something that I learned about doulas very early on in starting Evidence Based Birth®. Some of them were having conversations with me about using that kind of strategy of slowing down the pace in the birth room, it creates a sense of calm and centeredness and groundedness. It allows people to make decisions out of a place of feeling calm rather than fearful or stressed. Is this a typical thing? Do most families interview doulas or do they just contact one and hire them? Like, how does it typically work?

Chanté Perryman – 00:10:50:

I would think that most people do interviews. But I can only speak for me because most people interview with me. Unless if you just know like off the, you know, off the bat, like I want this particular doula, like you’ve had previous history or you know of them to just be like, I want you to be my doula. But thinking of maybe a first-time family who doesn’t know much about the doulas in the area, I would definitely recommend reaching out and interviewing a few. And that’s something that I even share in my interviews with people. Because even though I would love to support everyone, I understand that I’m not the doula for everyone. And that some families or some clients might not be. Like within that niche for me. And so I tell people like, I would love to be part of your team, but I also highly recommend that you interview with other doulas in the community. And I come from a place of abundance because you’re like, that’s how we are here at EBB. And I will be like, I will share other doulas information with you if you don’t know who to contact. And depending upon like on your birth month, I can kind of already know who’s already booked and who’s not booked and just be like, well, you should contact these doulas because they still have availability. But yeah, like interviewing, I would say is pretty key.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:12:16:

It’s pretty standard.

Chanté Perryman – 00:12:17:

Yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:12:18:

Yeah. Julie, how about in your experience?

Julie Fors – 00:12:20:

Yeah, I would agree. Even if you’ve already kind of decided that this may be the doula that you’re going to be going with, there still is that kind of meet and greet so that you can get a feel for their personality and just what that fit is. And kind of ask those questions, even if it’s just the logistical questions of how often do we meet? How many prenatal visits do we do? You know, what does it look like when you join me in labor and things like that? So I think it’s important to meet that person before you hire them.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:12:48:

And you mentioned fit and personality. So. What are some ways people can use to figure out if a doula is the right fit for their family, both in terms of personality and approach to birth.

Julie Fors – 00:13:02:

So I would say, think about it like if you’re at a party or a wedding and you’re talking to people that you’ve been assigned at the table, you start to ask them questions. Things like, I mean, at the wedding, you ask them questions about like, what do you do for fun or what do you do for work? But you can quickly tell who are the people that you want to hang out with a little bit more and who are the people that you’re like, I wouldn’t mind if maybe you change seats. So think about that same interviewing when you’re talking to a doula. You’re asking them questions about what they’re doing and what it looks like to have them as your doula. But as you’re, as they’re answering for you, you’re getting a little feel for, is this a person that I would like to spend some time with? Or is this a person that I really don’t need to spend any more time? So I think you can trust a little bit of your vibe that you’re getting from them.

Chanté Perryman – 00:13:51:

Yeah. Like your instincts, like do we mesh well? And I say that to some clients also, like, do you, you almost have to think of like, do you want this person in your personal birthing space? Seeing you in your full birthday suit, you know, like all the things like, this is a really private and personal moment. And so you’re inviting someone into that space with you. So how comfortable are you going to be with them there?

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:14:21:

What about your partner? How important is it if you have a partner with you that they feel comfortable with the doula?

Chanté Perryman – 00:14:27:

I feel like the partner should be extremely comfortable with the doula. So my way of practicing is that I’m supporting both. Like I’m supporting as a whole, like not just one person, I’m supporting both. And I share that in the interview because sometimes, you know, like that’s one of those questions, like, are you replacing my partner? Is the dad or the husband going to get left out? And I like to say, no, I include him or whoever the support person is in this experience. Because when you look back and think back on your birthing experience, I don’t want you to remember me. I want you to remember the person, whether it’s your husband, sister, mom, aunt, wife, whoever, I want you to remember them being there in your face, like giving you those oxytocin boost, giving you those encouraging words, those words of affirmation. And I’m like the person in the background who’s coaching them to help you. So I feel like it’s, yeah, it’s the whole aspect. Like we’re supporting both people who are in the room.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:15:31:

Maybe you could also phrase it in terms of like, you know, red flag says it’s not a good fit. Like Julie mentioned, like, I actually don’t really want to hang out with this person, you know, because birth can take a long time too, right? So any hints or feelings that you’re just, they were rubbing you the wrong way, perhaps?

Julie Fors – 00:15:49:

Yeah. If you don’t feel comfortable with the doula in the interview process, if your partner does not feel comfortable, you’re not going to feel comfortable in the birth. That can be a red flag. So just like going on feel, you can also go on the answers to the interview questions that you’re getting as to whether those answers make you feel comfortable or not.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:16:09:

And that brings me perfectly to my next question for both of you, which is what are the key questions you recommend families ask when they’re interviewing a potential doula?

Julie Fors – 00:16:19:

One of the first questions I recommend asking is, ask your doula if they have a style. What would they describe their style as? Or ask them if they have an agenda for birth. Ask them what they think a perfect birth might look like and see what their answer is. I kind of say if they have an answer of what a perfect birth looks like, that might be a red flag. Because there is no such thing as a perfect birth and there’s no such thing as one right way to give birth for everybody. I tell my students all the time that every birth is a 100% unique experience. And so seeing what their answer for that is can help you determine whether they’re there to support you or whether they’re there to create a birth experience that they want.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:17:06:

That’s interesting because I feel like when you said, what would perfect birth be to you? I have one in mind, actually, but that would be my personal perfect idea of birth. But also, my perfect idea of birth is for everyone to leave feeling empowered and cared for and receive humane, respectful, dignified care and feel like they were extremely well taken care of. And that, to me, I feel like you could have an answer like that. That would be the right answer.

Julie Fors – 00:17:40:

That would be the right answer, yes.

Chanté Perryman – 00:17:44:

One question that I get often is like your experience. And I want to say this to new doulas, like you have to start at some point. And so I share with new doulas, it’s okay to say that, like, you know, I’m starting out. I don’t have much experience under my belt, but I would love to be part of your birth so that you, you know, both of us can share in this experience together. But that’s one question you can ask, like, what is your experience? For instance, if someone’s having a VBAC. Have you supported VBAC families before? Have you supported families with multiples? Have you supported families with, if there’s a specific situation that your birth or your pregnancy is dealing with at this moment, have you supported someone with this XYZ situation? And so that question is one that I say to ask doulas. Another question that I really like how you said, Julie, like your philosophy, like what’s your philosophy on birth? That’s a good question. And then a third question that I really love to ask is, okay, so once I have this baby, what does it look like postpartum? Because some doulas do offer postpartum care and then some don’t. And some only offer just to like up to six months. But that postpartum time is still a very fragile and delicate and personable time. So for someone who’s looking for a doula, does your doula just like, we’re done and over once this baby is born? Or is your doula still going to provide support for you in the time that you’re transitioning into becoming a parent?

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:19:24:

Okay, so don’t underestimate the importance of asking about the postpartum support options. And maybe they will offer postpartum services or can refer you to somebody who does. Julie, what else? What other questions?

Julie Fors – 00:19:39:

Yeah, I think definitely making sure that your questions are open-ended. I like to ask how or what questions and have the doula tell you a story. Some of the questions you’re going to ask are going to be logistical. You know, how many times do we meet? How do we communicate? When do I call you when I’m in labor? When do you join us? You know, those types of logistical questions are important to get out of the way as well. But just like have them tell you a story. What does it look like when you join us? You know, how do you support my partner so they can better support me? Those are great questions that will direct the other questions that you’re going to need to ask to kind of get an idea for what it looks like to have this person as your doula.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:20:21:

I think another way of asking the philosophy question, which both of you were mentioning, is to say something like, what does being a doula mean to you? Like, why did you choose this, this career? And another question in terms of like teasing out if they’re the right fit is you could ask them, what do you do if your perspective on birth differs from your client’s perspective?

Julie Fors – 00:20:45:

I would also add, we talked a little bit about advocacy. I would add that question as well. Do you consider yourself an advocate? What does it look like for you to advocate for me? In what situation would you advocate for me? So you can kind of get a feel for that, especially if you know a little bit about your birth setting and whether you’re going to need a strong advocate in order to get your preferences and your concerns heard. Some birth settings, super easy to get that across other birth settings can be a little bit more challenging. And if you really need a strong advocate, that’d be a good question to ask them as well too.

Chanté Perryman – 00:21:21:

Rebecca, when you mentioned the difference, I don’t want to say that this could be a red flag, but it could be a potential flag. So going in, as Julie says, give an example or a story, but going in and if the doula says, I only support natural births. But what if this person going in is like in the back of their mind already like knows that they want an epidural. So like, are you not going to support me because I want pain medication? So in that, like just, I like to do visual, like either Zoom or in person, because you are getting that body language. And so you can see how they’re responding in their body. You can hear how they’re responding in their tone. And just trusts your gut, especially when it comes to differences, like if you kind of have an idea of what you are imagining or wanting your birth to be, but somebody is giving you information and you’re kind of like, I don’t know. Like, that’s a flag. It’s a flag.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:22:28:

You must have mentioned logistical questions a couple times. There are a couple topics I’m curious about. One of them is backup plans. So can you talk a little bit about how that might go in an interview?

Chanté Perryman – 00:22:43:

Like a backup doula?

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:22:45:

Mm-hmm.

Chanté Perryman – 00:22:46:

Oh, yeah. So backup doulas are important. Because depending upon how many clients a doula takes in a month, like if I take four clients in a month, I have run the risk of two people being in labor at the same time. And I can’t be in two places at the same time. So I feel like it’s really important to have a backup doula. And in my interview process, I mentioned that to people. I have a backup doula. You will meet her typically around 36 weeks. If you want her to be involved in the remaining of our prenatal visits, that’s fine. So then that way she’s included in the care. She knows the plan, she knows what’s going on, whether she has to show up or not. She has all of the information. So backup doulas are super important because, again, a doula can’t be in two places at once.

Julie Fors – 00:23:34:

Yeah, that’s definitely an important question to add on your interview list questions that you’re asking is, what is the backup plan? What happens if you cannot attend my birth? For whatever reason, whether it’s because you’re at another birth or you get sick or you’re traveling out of town. What does that look like? How on call are you as a doula for me? So that you can get the logistics and understand exactly what the plan is when you go into labor.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:24:04:

And also the plan if you have an extremely long labor.

Chanté Perryman – 00:24:07:

Yes.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:24:08:

So what is the longest labor both of you have been a part of?

Julie Fors – 00:24:12:

Mine is 41 hours.

Chanté Perryman – 00:24:14:

I had a 36-hour one recently, but I don’t feel like that was the longest. I had an induction that was like two and a half days. And that was out of state. And I didn’t have a backup because I got called out of state. But yeah, so 36, 48 hours.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:24:36:

Backup doulas can also come into play if you have an extremely long labor.

Chanté Perryman – 00:24:40:

And then you also have to think about where you live, like geography-wise, like weather-wise, you know, like if it’s your hurricane season or if it’s wintry weather, having a backup plan. Either if it’s a backup doula or like we’re just switching to virtual. I feel like that should be included in the conversation, depending, like I said, where you live, when you’re giving birth, all those things.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:25:09:

You know, one question I have that I don’t know if it’s a typical interview question or not, it has to do with inductions. So I think a lot of parents, especially who might be listening to this podcast, hope to avoid an induction. But we all know that around 40% of inductions around the world, sorry, 40% of births around the world are inductions, right? So that can also alter your plans for labor support. So any questions you would want to ask a doula about that?

Chanté Perryman – 00:25:40:

Yeah, like Julie said, like in the event that I have to have an induction, how does this, how does our plan change, if at all? Asking those types of questions. Again, going back to like, have you supported induction births before? If you know where you’re going to give birth at with a specific provider, asking questions like, what does an induction look like with this provider at this hospital? I like to be a doula who’s upfront with information. So if I know that someone’s birthing at a particular location, I’m like, look 38 weeks. This provider is very known for bait and switch. So you have to be prepared for that and be able to go in with asking further questions about like, well, why is this necessary? And if it is. That’s fine. If it’s not, let’s have a discussion about this. And so just asking some of those kinds of questions.

Julie Fors – 00:26:43:

Yeah. Logistically, it can change a little bit. Oftentimes, inductions are longer than spontaneous labors because you’re kind of starting from zero. So you’re doing some of that prep work, those first 10 to 12 hours of the labor. So yeah, asking that, what does that look like if I choose to have an induction? What does it look like to have your support? Oftentimes, as a doula, when I would support inductions, personally, I would kind of show up in the beginning a little bit as they’re getting set up. And then I would leave for a little bit because there’s a lot of kind of downtime in that beginning where maybe they don’t need my physical support as much at that time. And so we kind of save that more for later and it gives them maybe some time to rest. But I usually am more available via phone during that time. So we can answer questions and navigate decisions as they’re happening every couple of hours.

Chanté Perryman – 00:27:40:

Julie saying, like, I will show up at the beginning. Like, let’s get situated. Let’s get the induction started. And we’re very clear about this before I show up. And then I’m going home. I’m going to sleep. And then once things start picking up, once you feel like you need me, you have questions, call me. Don’t text me, call me. And then we’ll figure out what we’re doing from there, whether if I’m coming in or if I’m waiting another hour. But yeah, like it’s just all about keeping the lines of communication open.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:28:15:

Understanding when and how to contact each other and all that. And imagine some of that you can go over once you’ve decided officially that you’re going to work with this person, then you can kind of they’ll go over their guidelines for communication with you if you, if it wasn’t covered in the interview. So both of you have been on the receiving end of a lot of interviews. You’ve had a lot of people interview you over the years. What are some misconceptions you’ve encountered about doulas during the interview process? And how do you clear those up?

Chanté Perryman – 00:28:44:

Yeah. Like I mentioned before, sometimes people might have this misconception of that we’re replacing the partner. And that’s not true. We’re not there to make decisions for you. None of that. We’re here to support you and to guide you in this process.

Julie Fors – 00:29:01:

One of the main misconceptions that I get about doulas is that they only support unmedicated births. And this idea, again, this kind of goes back to that first question of philosophy or what does your perfect birth look like? This idea that doulas only want unmedicated home births that they’re kind of in that crunchy field is definitely a misconception. There may be doulas that think that way, but they might not be the doulas for you. And talking about all the different options and choices that you have for your birth, including pain medications, if that’s what you want, is a way to kind of dispel that myth and just really be, talking again about like our perfect birth is whatever you want it to be and getting to be heard and listened to and respected, that is the birth experience that, that I’m looking for. It doesn’t matter whether that’s medicated, unmedicated, Cesarean, vaginal, induction, all of those things can still be that perfect birth. If you were listened to, heard, respected, and that’s what we’re kind of going for. It doesn’t just have to be unmedicated home births.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:30:13:

Chanté, any misconceptions that you come across?

Chanté Perryman – 00:30:16:

Yes, that doulas are there to only support one type of birth. And that doulas are only, yeah, like doulas are only there for people who have the income to, you know, have a doula. And that’s not true. There are doulas who have nonprofits and who are there to support those who might not have the financial means to get a doula. So I don’t want anybody to just think like, oh, well, I don’t have any money to pay for a doula. Look into resources. I’ve also told people before, like when your baby showers are coming up. Ask for the funds then if you don’t need all of the big expensive things that people say that a baby need, you can take those funds and turn that into going in towards getting a doula. So I don’t want people to think like doula is a luxury item. There you go. It’s not. A doula is for anyone.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:31:14:

And yeah, I remember when Chanté, when you and I were first kind of getting into this field, there was a marketing push to brand doulas as a luxury item. And I understand where that was coming from, but it did give off this feel that only a certain socioeconomic class of women could have one. And as you both know, that’s not true. So that does lead me to my next question, which was actually about cost. So you all work with a lot of doulas, both in the EBB Instructor Program and the Pro Membership. And you’ve learned a lot over the years about how factors like insurance coverage are changing the landscape. Can you talk a little bit about what you’ve seen shift over the last couple of years?

Chanté Perryman – 00:32:00:

Yeah, so we have seen more employers now being able to have doulas provided within the insurance. So yes, we’re seeing more employers now offer doula, like having doula support as a benefit within the insurance. And so depending upon what your insurance covers, if you know that you are pregnant or looking to get pregnant within the next year, that might be either an add-on or it might be automatically included in your insurance policy for that coming up year. So you could just have to… You will just have to ask your human resources department about what’s included in your insurance. We’ve also seen more nonprofit organizations come available. And so, again, that’s an option if you don’t have the financial means. And then Medicaid and Medi-Cal out in California, depending upon your state. Doula support along with childbirth education is now more readily available for those who qualify for that.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:33:06:

Julie, is there anything you’re seeing out in California with doula coverage?

Julie Fors – 00:33:10:

Yes. Just like what Chanté said, Medicaid is now in many states starting to cover doula services. And so doulas are being able to be reimbursed through that process. Doulas do need to go through the process to become qualified to be able to bill Medicaid. But it is happening. So it’s expanding the people who are able to access doula services. I know some governors as well are talking about mandating it for private insurance as well, so that private insurances will now be required to cover doula services. So it does seem like there’s a bit of a shift in seeing that doula services is not a luxury item at all, but it is a resource that benefits not only the birthing person, but it benefits the entire healthcare system because we know that doulas improve birth outcomes and they lower costs for the healthcare system. So we are definitely seeing some push toward that regulatory change.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:34:08:

It seems like that would be one of the things you would want to figure out first before the interview actually is, how would I financially cover the cost of a doula? Like, is this something that I can afford the fee? Do they have sliding scale? Does my insurance cover? Does Medicaid cover? And finding that out before maybe you go to the trouble of interviewing someone potentially? What do you think?

Julie Fors – 00:34:33:

What I would say is those could also be questions that you ask in the interview. So you can ask during the interview process, are you qualified with Medicaid? Do you accept Medicaid? Do you bill Medicaid? Do you offer a sliding scale? Sometimes you don’t get the pricing until you do the interview. Some doulas don’t put their pricing on their websites. Some do, and you can kind of get some information from that before you go to the interview, but those can be questions that you do ask in the interview.

Chanté Perryman – 00:35:02:

Depending upon the insurance, some have like the flexible spending. Some doulas may take that as well. So that’s another question to be included in that financial part of the interview.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:35:14:

Or to be able to give you a letter or receipt that you can use to get reimbursed for it. Same with childbirth education, which brings me to like another quick question. I know both of you provide doula and childbirth education services. Do you find that’s common? Like, is that a question families should be asking during the interview?

Chanté Perryman – 00:35:36:

Yes. But I love childbirth education, though. So for me, I might be a little biased here. But for me, I feel like childbirth education is so critical and so important. Because especially if you’ve never given birth before, you go in kind of like unknowing, like what to expect.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:35:56:

Like you don’t know what you don’t know.

Chanté Perryman – 00:35:58:

Right. And so that childbirth education helps to fill in some of those gaps and gives you some answers to the questions you didn’t know to ask. And so I put my childbirth education and my doula support together. Some may do it separately and again others might do it like me, put it together. But I’ve been seeing where more midwives are requiring that people now have a childbirth education class as part of being under their care. Because we know midwives are busy and they might not be able, not all midwives might be able to offer childbirth education. But if they know that their clients are taking a class, they have some of that background information, then they have more tools and resources and knowledge going into the birth.

Julie Fors – 00:36:44:

Yeah, I don’t think it’s absolutely critical that you get your childbirth education from your doula, but it’s kind of a bonus. If you can take the class with them and then have them as your doula, there’s continuity of care there, right? Because now they know what you know because they know the class that you took and they know the doula can refer back to things like, hey, remember in that class when we talked about XYZ, here’s how we’re using that in the birth and things like that. So I think there can be some really cool continuity of care. And then if that birth doula also offers postpartum services, there’s just this seamlessness from basically throughout your pregnancy through the birth and then through the postpartum period. Having that birth doula as your postpartum doula, they know what your birth experience was because they were actually physically there so that, you know, that can inform them and how they care for you during those first few weeks.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:37:39:

Yeah. So speaking of postpartum doulas, do you have any tips for finding a postpartum doula? I imagine it’s similar in that you want to find someone that you trust and you feel comfortable with because they’re going to see you when you’re crying, you know, when you’re trying to breastfeed your baby. Any tips for finding a postpartum doula?

Chanté Perryman – 00:37:58:

Yeah, same tips as before. You know, Google, word of mouth, asking your provider. But if you have a birth doula who does not provide postpartum support, I would definitely ask your birth doula, like, hey, do you have a list of recommendations or some suggestions on how and where to find a postpartum doula? And I like to say that postpartum conversation should really be had during the pregnancy. Like, I know sometimes things happen and you can’t get a postpartum doula, you know that you need a postpartum doula. But if you can find one and do that interview process before the baby is born, that’s going to save you so much time and so much headache. Because now you can be like, I’ve had my baby. I need support. When can you come? Instead of having the baby and being like, hi, I just had a baby. Are you available? So if you can get a lot of that done during your pregnancy, that would save you definitely some time on the postpartum side.

Julie Fors – 00:39:07:

Yeah, I know a lot of doulas who just do birth work or just do postpartum work. So if your birth doula does not do postpartum, they likely will have some connections to be able to hook you up there. So that’s a great place to start. And when you kind of talked a little bit about the baby shower and like what we should be registering for, I think we should be registering for postpartum health. Like all the things, like I tell some of my students, like the only thing your baby needs when you first bring them home is your arms and a safe place to sleep. Like that’s really, and some diapers, right? Like that’s really all they need in that beginning. They don’t need a high chair, you know? So maybe save that, you know, and get that later and register instead for a postpartum doula or register for meal services or house cleaning services. Things that can help you in those first few weeks when you really need to recover, rest, and bond with your baby.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:40:01:

That makes perfect sense. And I know at least around here where I live, postpartum doulas can book up and they tend to book similar to a birth doula by due date. And when you expect to have your baby home and then they budget a certain number of hours per week to come and help you. So it’s definitely something if you want time to find someone who’s a good fit and make sure that you want to welcome them into your home to start that during pregnancy if you can.

Chanté Perryman – 00:40:31:

Depending upon your area and where you live, you may have more birth doulas than you do have postpartum doulas. So that’s another thing to take into consideration is if you know I’m due in June, but there’s only like two postpartum doulas in my area, I need to be making phone calls earlier instead of in May.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:40:52:

So we’ve covered a lot of questions and things for parents to think about. I know some parents or whether they’re the birthing person or the partner still might feel nervous or unsure about like, how do you reach out to that doula to set up that interview? Do you have any advice or tips for anybody who’s listening, who wants to take that step, but it’s just not ready.

Chanté Perryman – 00:41:16:

Doula’s support is just like another service. If I have plumbing that I need to get done in my house, I’m Googling or asking someone, do you know a plumber? I need a plumber to come. I kind of think of it the same way as doula support. I’m having a baby. I need someone to come and support me. Do you know who can come and support me during this time? So there might be like some nervousness around it, but it’s another service in general. It is. It’s another service. Someone to come and support you during your pregnancy, your labor birth and postpartum. And so just take it as that. I’m just making a phone call. I’m just trying to gather information. I don’t know anything about doulas. I just heard about a doula and I’m trying to learn more. What information can you provide for me? And just approach it in that manner. The other thing that I would definitely share with people too, is that even if it comes down to you cannot afford. Or you just do not have the financial means. There’s not a nonprofit. There’s like nothing in your community that offers you the means to have a doula physically there at your birth. I would still call and reach out to the doulas in your community and explain that. Look. I can’t afford a doula. The doula might not offer sliding scale, none of that. But I would still love for you to be able to share some information with me. And maybe the doula charges you like a minimal fee, 50 bucks, 100 bucks for an hour. And it’s not necessarily Childbirth Class, but just doula information. What are the things that you would tell someone on how to support them in their labor and birthing time without having someone physically there? So if you have your support person, partner, husband, like, let’s go to this one hour consultation, and have the doula just share with you different comfort measures or just language on advocacy, just a little something so that you have those tools available for when you go into your birth.

Julie Fors – 00:43:27:

Yeah. And interviewing a doula is there’s no obligation to that. All you’re doing is a meet and greet. So, if you’re nervous about like, I don’t know what a doula is or how they’re going to fit. Or like you said, Chanté a lot of partners feel like they’re going to be replaced. Meet with that doula. See how that works and just get a feel for that. Oftentimes I’ll tell people like, I know birth, but you know your partner. So like we both can support this person in very different ways. And that I’m also there to support you as the support person. Because the more supported you are, the better you are at supporting the person who’s giving birth. So I say, yeah, just go ahead and schedule the meeting. Oftentimes now, since post-COVID, most doulas are doing these virtually. So you don’t even necessarily have to go anywhere. You don’t really even need to dress up. You just get on a Zoom call and you spend an hour talking about birth. Most doulas love talking about birth. So they’ll just tell you stories about what it looks like. And you can get a real good idea of what it would look like to have a doula just by listening to them talk.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:44:34:

That’s really helpful, Julie. It’s always helpful to remember that. Yeah, doulas love birth. So they will love to talk with you. You know, don’t worry about reaching out. They will be excited to hear from you for sure. Well, thank you so much, Chanté and Julie, for sharing your tips with our listeners on how to find an interview doula. We appreciate you both so much.

Chanté Perryman – 00:44:55:

Thank you.

Julie Fors – 00:44:56:

Thanks.

Dr. Rebecca Dekker – 00:44:57:

This podcast episode was brought to you by the Evidence Based Birth® Childbirth Class. This is Rebecca speaking. When I walked into the hospital to have my first baby, I had no idea what I was getting myself into. Since then, I’ve met countless parents who felt that they too were unprepared for the birth process and navigating the healthcare system. The next time I had a baby, I learned that in order to have the most empowering birth possible, I needed to learn the evidence on childbirth practices. We are now offering the Evidence Based Birth® Childbirth Class totally online. In your class, you will work with an instructor who will skillfully mentor you and your partner in evidence-based care, comfort measures, and advocacy so that you can both embrace your birth and parenting experiences with courage and confidence. Get empowered with an interactive online Childbirth Class you and your partner will love. Visit evidencebasedbirth.com/childbirthclass to find your class now.